question for Jim Weise or anyone else

Jim,

i had emailed u a few times and thanks for all the help.

i took the oil filter and cut it in half the filter had a few hundred miles on it.

It looked good no flakes that you could see to the naked eye. I did notice that in the sunlight you could see small small particles in the oil. I assure this is fine because if the engine didn't wear, then why run a filter right?

So i think that looks fine. No slivers of copper and gray bearing surface. just particles you cant see unles you got a microscope out.

Also if a cam bearing is wearing, usually they go out in a hurry right, they won't wait around they will gauld and stop oil to driver side right? just curious.

lastly i run hydrolic lifter cam with TA's roller rockers. I do notice that after the motor warms up quit a bit, they make a light ticking noise from both sides.

Is this normal for roller tipped rockers, i know alot of chevy boys say it is, i just want to get you say in it.

thanks for reading this and hopefully you will reply i appreciate it.

bryan

 

Bryan,

If you cut the filter open, and found no copper or gray bearing flakes, then the issues we discussed via email should not be a problem.

No, often times a cam bearing will fail right away (they always fail right at inital startup) but it may take a while before they get bad enough to show up in the oil pressure. But they will normally also show up in the oil filter. Not always, but normally.

I suspect your issues with 10 psi of oil pressure in a new motor have more to do with the oil pump assembly, or bottom end clearances, than any failure, although a cam bearing or two going away is still possible.

Lots of folks will tell you that 10psi in a fresh rebuilt street motor, with 10-30 oil, and the oil at 150-160 * temp is "normal", and won't hurt anything.

A properly clearanced/oil pump rebuilt/modified BBB street motor should never be below 20 psi, under any condition, at any temp, with any weight oil.. Typically our street motors Idle with 10-30 oil at 30-35 psi. This is a function of proper bottom end clearances for the application, and a properly set up timing cover/oil pump assembly.

I have built a couple of motors that idle at 15psi, but they are 600+ HP Street/Strip motors that have race motor bottom end clearances.

I will rarely build a street motor with more than .002-.0025 on the bottom end clearance.. actually I prefer .0015 to .002 for street motors up to 600 HP. I have put them together at .0025-.003 but can certainly see the effect of those larger clearances on the hot idle oil pressure.

at about .0017, they make killer oil pressure, and live a long happy life.

That Level 1A motor we dynoed the death out of a few months ago had .0015 on the mains and rods... even after repeated dyno pulls, just a few minutes apart, it never dropped below 35 psi at idle (oil temp was as high as 175*) which is hotter than I typically like to see a new motor run. But that one had 76 psi on the first pull, and 76 psi on the last pull.. 33 pulls later..


Will 10 psi at idle hurt anything?... Prolly not, but it's not doing it any good either.

And I know that customers like to see the oil pressure gauge up there all the time, and when I know a particular high HP build is going to have lower pressure at idle, I make sure I warn the customer of that, so they don't freak out..

JW

 

Jim,

The pressure is around 15 to 17 at 800 RPM in drive In neautral it is about 20 to 22 when motor is 200deg. At start up and for a few miles ast idle it is 40PSI. front cover and pump were setuop up by TA performance and they said this is typical of these motors so says Mike.

The pump was set up with .002 endclearance.

I think i will just go to a little heavier oil, what do you run in most of you street motors. 10w40 or 20w50?

thanks

 

what else are good indications of cam bearing going out, besides lack of oil on driver side valley and metal flake in pan.

Thanks for all the support, its really appreciated

Bryan

 

I had a noise eventually that sounded like a bad alternator bearing, very high pitched squeal. I am pretty sure it was the cam bearings. Jim Weise can tell you just how bad it was in there! Something about a punch and hammer thru the rear cam plug to get the cam out! Brian :eek2:

 

By the way Jim, did I set a record for the most awful looking cam bearings in a motor you have seen? And if so is there a prize or award involved? Or is it something I have bragging rights about! Brian :grin:

 

do you know the cause of it. was the clearance not setup right or was it something else?

 

What we do in piston aircraft engines may be of some use. With every oil change we take a sample and send it off for analysis. We get a baseline and each analysis thereafter is printed against the others. They will tell you whether the metal content is within normal levels and if a part is wearing abnormally the identity of the part. Costs about $25. I bet they do it for cars too or someone does.

For aircraft and they think it is a grenade, they will call you by phone to tell you not to take off. I will not bother to tell you about a brew we cooked up from an old tractor for a friend's analysis. Pretty hysterical reaction from the lab though. Good to know they really look at them!

 

Good idea Jim! If there is a small private airport near you there may be a maintainance facility there. Maybe they could send it off or test it for you. Brian

 

In all honesty, i am not concered with the oil. there is no flakes and metal shavings in it.

It does have fine fine fine metal particles, as any other engines do, and i think that is due to normal wear and tear. Plus the motor barely has 500 miles on it. Everything is still trying break in.

i think that is a great idea to get it tested and i still might but i see more particles in my 96 cutlass everyday driver.

By the way do any of you run roller rockers and if you do, do they make a ticking noise from both sides. mine sound like a chevy engine with crane roller rockers.

thanks bryan

 

You do not need the airport, they send you a kit like for a urine specimen. I have the numbers for some of the labs.


Seems expensive perhaps for a car but it might prevent a rod from peeking out the block. I always hated that to happened in an airplane, but small potatos compared to say losing a wing. That is when I really start to whine!

 

I tell you what,

Jim Weise is very bright when it comes to these buicks and i really appreciate him helping me along the way

Also all the people who are helping me thanks your posts are much to my pleasing.

Bryan

 

It's just a bragging rights deal..

And yes, those were the worst I have seen.. I saved them for you.

JW

 

From the looks of it here, what your experienceing is simply loss of idle speed oil pressure due to large bearing clearances.

And to have your oil tested (always a good idea) just find a CAT dealer/service center.. oil testing is done on a regular basis on over the road trucks, to determine when they need to have a rebuild.

I have had it done at a Cat dealer in town here,in the past. Don't recall the cost, and it was a while ago.

JW

 

I was talking to TA on the phone recently, and they told me they perfer 10w30 in the motors of any clearance size

thesy said it is not as hard on the cam bearings because the oil pump doesn't have as much strain on it

Now i heard from other people, like my machinist and engine builder, that they told me to run like a straight 40w. in the summer and 10w30 in the winter

will this hurt anything. and if a motor had stock clearances would it prefent good beearing lubercation?

 

dang, now that's funny...

 

I wholeheartedly agree with Jim on clearances. EVERY Buick engine is have disected after it wouldn't hold good oil pressure from fresh rebuild had insane oil clearances, from being rebuilt/machined by Billy-Joe-Bob-Fred-Whizz Bang, the local Chevy shadetree "racing" guru, with the chaw juice running down his chin, shouting "A big block Chevy uses .0025 on the rods, .0035 on the mains, with .018 side clearances, and........your Buick should, too, gaahukka, gaahukka, yup, dude".

Why can't we just shoot these people and be done with them?

 

i always heard and Ta performance re assured me too that the clearances i have is better for what i am doing.

This is no cruiser, when it is run it is run hard!

I talked to the machinist and he said i had .003 on the mains and .002 to .0025 on the rods. He said what I am experiencing is normal. He too had a buick that did the same. He said you could tighten up the tolerances to get beeter pressure, if you just want a driver. but for hard street use and use at the track he wouldn't have those tight of tolerances.

From what I am hearing I guess i shouldn't worry about the pressure with my 10w30. i bet if i put straight 40w in it it would pick it up, but why risk hurting it.

 

Just remember that is a matter of opinion..


I won't open up the clearances, until we go past 600 HP..

That's my opinion, right or wrong... but I do stand behind my work.. so if it fails because my opinion was wrong, then I pay to fix it..

No questions asked..

JW

 

Every one of the engines I refered to in my previous post ended up running a bit cooler and a whole lot better with the tighter clearances and better oil pressure. Now, as has been said, full race, sure, clearance the living daylights out of it, it only has to work for a quarter mile, but not a street engine or at the levels Jim alluded to. I stand with him on clearance issues/setups/situations.

I also run straight weight natural oils all the way, which is something some others don't agree with, but the only failure I have ever had was in my own 215, sitting outside in my Vega. Spun a rod bearing, stock silly putty 215 rod, no ARP bolts, and I drove it home 14 miles, with 215,000 miles and 23 years on that engine. I remember when I built the engine, one of the rods was somewhat out of spec, and it couldn't be made completely correct, something like 2 percent out of round, that must have been the one that changed over the years/miles, spun the inserts.