So i was going to post this in the other thread, but i dont want things to become a mess since the other thread is helping me alot. So i went by my buddy's house to show him the skylark. well as soon as i went to leave the break pedal went all the way down to th secondary breaks. I didnt notice a leak, and pumping the breaks hile the car was on didnt do anyting. while the car was off it wuld build presure while pumping the pedal. GOing to check the lines tomorrow. Is it ok to drive with just the secondaries. And my most common question, what would be the most likely suspects that would case this. And what else should i check.
First question.... What are secondary brakes????? I have one brake (shoes and cylinder) on each wheel and one master cylinder to control all four wheels. First off, stop driving it with bad brakes!! You will kill or hurt your self or someone else. Second, check the fluid level in the master cylinder as a starting point. Next check the wheels (back side) to see if you see any wet area from the fluids. Report back after that.
Im not 100% sure what secondary breaks are. The guy i bought the car from said if the breaks go, the secondary breaks are all the way at the bottom. It feels like the breaks are completely gone, but then the breaks catch right at the bottom. Like a back up break. And i ddnt notice any fluid. That was the first thing i checked.
There is no such thing as secondary brakes. Don't drive it!! You most likely lost either the front or the rear system. Could be a rusted thru metal brake line, burst hose, or a wheel cylinder blew out. Like Dave said, look for loss of fluid and then wet areas at the wheels or along the metal brake lines.
forgot to mention this just happened about 4 hours ago, but yesterday the break light on the dash stopped shutting off. Its just a bit od for it to not be related. Part of the rear breaks might be the problem.
I think I haven't been on here for a week, and posted a couple times the lesson I learned with old cars. Inspect and rebuild the brakes. Never take them for granted. I can't count on one hand how many times my 68 olds scared me and numerous other drivers before I got it for good. Luckily I never hit anyone or anything. First, check the mount where the master cylinder and the brake booster meet. If it is wet, replace the master cylinder. Then check all 3 brake hoses, two in front where they mount to calipers (or wheel cylinders if drums) and one in the rear on the axle that feeds the split going to the rear cylinders. If you see cracking, splitting, or leaking, just replace them. Then work your way to the rear drums. Remove the tire and inspect from the inside in case the fluid has not made it to where it is evident or it has dried up after a good rain (check front also if it has drums up front). You can usually see the leak seeping from the back, but if the wheel cylinder seals are in bad shape, don't take a chance. All parts are pretty cheap, usually less than 40 buck for the master cylinder, about 15 for each front brake hose, sometime up to 40 for the rear, and less than 20 bucks for each wheel cylinder. Check the front calipers if it has them just to be safe and invest in high temp brake lube to grease the slides for extended life of pads. Don't forget to pump the pedal after bleeding the brakes to make sure you don't freak out and hit something on the maiden voyage (should've seen my reaction when doing this the first time without pumping the brakes), it'll go to the floor if you don't for a couple times. Once you have good pedal, check them out. Hope that helps. :TU:
Please dont take offence by this Marcello, but it sounds like you dont have a whole lot of experience in brake repair. Find someone in your area that you can bring your car to. Maybe ask them to give you a lesson as they repair your car properly. Once you gain the basics of brake theory, you can start getting some hands on experience.
OK, I have to go with what Jason said. You don't have the experience to work on these your self. Get someone who knows what they are doing and will let you help or something. You will learn a lot. If the guy that sold you the car told you that, one of two things is true. 1) He knowingly sold you a car that could get you killed. 2) Or he's an idiot. Brakes on these vintage cars are very simple systems, but you have to get everything just right. There are a bunch of springs in there that are a little bit of a pain to take off, to remember how they go back together, and a bigger pain to put back on. You may need to turn drums while at it, or you may not. If you take it to a shop they will probably turn or replace them no matter what. Find someone who knows how to do them and help them with it so that you can learn. Most important, Do not under any circumstance drive the car like that. Not even to a shop to have it fixed! I just had an adventure tonight turning my 64 around in front of the garage because I have a big leak in the front and they quit about half way through the turn around. Your car has dual reservoirs on the master cylinder whereas mine has one. That may be the line that he was trying to feed you. Your front brakes could be leaking and the back ones are only shot. About 70 percent of your stopping is the front brakes. The good news is that brakes are not real expensive to work on most of the time on these rigs. I just paid $35 for two new front brake cylinders and some brake cleaner. The fluid that I was talking about is in the master cylinder. It may be a slower leak and the cylinder is dry. He may have filled it and bled the brakes just prior to you buying the car. You will also want to look under the car, at the back of the wheel. You will see where the brake line goes into the backing plate and hooks into a cylinder (I think you have front drums). Look for any wet area right there, all four corners. There are a lot of guys that don't care and will do what ever it takes to make a car check out OK to sell it. The guys that I bought my 64 from did a bunch of stuff that would have been a big problem for someone if they wouln't have done like I did and bought it for the good body as a decent rolling project.
No offense taken, i've only changed pads and rotors before. I have no experience in anything at all when it comes to restoring a car, other than what i've already completed so far. But thats why im here. To be honest i cant afford to have someone fix it. So im going by knowlege i gain from here and i have a few books. Plus some guys in my area have been explaining and showing me alot. But i havent spoken to anyone snce i notice the loss in breaking power. The master cylinder seems a bit moist. The first/bigger res was full, the second smaller was emptie.I didnt see any fluid coming from around the actual break calipers in frount or drums in back. Does each res corrispond to a set of breaks. aka big res front breaks, small res back breaks. Also were would be the best/cheapest place for breaks parts. I remeber reading a thread that mentions factory reconditioned master cylinders for cheap, are they ok?
The master cylinder being empty is BAD! Yes the bigger reservoir is for the front and the smaller for the back. From the sounds of it I would replace everything in that breaking system mc wc's hard lines and soft lines. I have had very good luck with rockauto.com
As Bret said: rockauto.com They have the best prices, and from another previous posting, here is a discount code good until 09/27/09: 20471751685825 As others have said - please be careful since you are dealing with your brakes! If you are going to learn on this car, take your time and get it right. 'nuff said. Go here for the '71 Chassis Service Manual brake section (it should be the same as your '72): http://www.teambuick.com/reference/library/71_chassis/files/50.php Read through it a couple times and understand how the system works before you dive in. If the rear well (smaller) is empty, you have no rear brakes. There is obviously a leak somewhere - and the fluid may have been mostly gone when you first drove off with the car. That is the first system you need to review and repair. As previously mentioned, you may be in for replacing several parts here. Keep us up to date on your progress - and keep the questions coming!
Since you are going to do this your self and have limited background here are some tips. Get the front end up in the air and take off the tires and drums from both sides at the same time, front or rear whatever you are working on. Next, take some digital pictures of how the springs go before you take it apart. Then work on one side at a time so that you can look at the other side when you go to put it all back together. Replace the wheel cylinders and make sure that there is plenty of material left on the brakes or replace them. Also if there is any brake fluid on them you may want to go ahead and replace them. Get lots of brake cleaner and make sure that it is all very clean when you put it together. If the drums look like they have a lot of wear in them, you will need to turn or replace them.
Thanks alot guys. Here is where i stand. Since the front res was full i assumed the front breaks were ok, but wanted to make sure. I jacked the car up and had someone hit the break while i spun the tires. The back struggled to stop, while the fronts stopped nicely. Then i took the rear tires off, and found a fluid on the inside of the rim. I doubt its oil from my impact wrench. My master was moist but then again i added more break fluid to it and i think its my fault. I then attempted to add more fluid and bleed the lines. I rechecked all the lines and they are all dry and seem ok. Yet even when there shouldn't have been anymore air in the lines, there was still no break pressure once i started the car. I then pulled the drums off. Would have done this first, but didn't realize i wasn't putting enough muscle into them with the hammer. So now i have both rear drums off. The side that leaked is alot more grimmy inside around the cylinder. I picked up some break cleaner and sprayed down both sides. Then it started to rain so i threw the drums and wheels back on and called it a day since it was almost dark. I think it might just be a bad wheel cylinder on the side i found the fluid in the rim[passenger side]. Im going to replace both if thats the case. Any other idea what might cause there to be no pressure even after the lines where bled. And just to make sure, to bleed the breaks i unscrew the bleeder on the back of the drum, then pump the breaks to push the fluid and trapped air out of the lines. Then with the pedal pressed down i re-tighten the bleeder screw. If the seller did do this for it to temporarily work when i bought it, it should have worked now too, correct?
You're on the right track. Remember to be safe. I have my car up and I have to do the front brakes. I have it on jack stands, and I have the floor jacks under it with very slight pressure for a backup. If you were leaking into the drum, you probably want to replace the brakes shoes while you are at it. When you bleed it, don't pump the pedal while the bleeder is open. Have someone pump it and hold it while you crack the bleeder, then when you have drained the pressure re tighten it and do it over until you have all the air out. If you lift on the pedal while the bleeder is open you can suck air back in.
Ok so i def bled the lines wrong then. Going to re bleed them again. Then try and better track the leak. I need to order the parts from that site. Its by far the best parts site ive ever seen. I need to figure out what else i need first. My understanding of how the breaks work has multiplied 10 fold. That service manual was great. The pictures/diagrams were great. Youtube is awsome. I taught myself how to weld from youtube!
There are rubber piston seals inside the wheel cylinder, then rubber boots on the outside to keep dirt out. SOMETIMES you can just clean the inside of the cylinder and install new seals. But more likely, the inside of the wheel cylinder is corroded, fluid leaks past the seals and out. Wheel cylinders are cheap, so just replace the whole thing. Be very careful loosening the metal brake line....it's easy to damage them if they are rusted and stuck. Give the nut/cylinder junction a soaking with a good penetrant for a few days to loosen it up.
