hit all those water pump n cover nuts n bolts early with some pb blaster or wd40 or whatever . especially the smaller ones . pump cover bolts too . check on here for steps n specs when doing the oil pump gears . larry , good info on the numbers . and that probably applies to a ton of dif vehicles .
Haven't had a chance to check the remanuf distro yet, probably this weekend. I've been working on my daughters car, I will be soaking the bolts with PB blaster before I try to get them loose as suggested. I plan on taking pic's of the process and getting them on this thread. Just got to get time and the inclination to get started.
I agree... Remove the number one spark plug, put a wine cork in the hole, turn the engine (by hand) over till the cork pops out, line up the timing mark to tdc and then remove the dist. Cap like steve says.
I don't mean to hijack the tread but I am having similar issues with timing on my 72. I know for a fact it has a remanufactured distributor. Does anyone have an original part number 1112109 they would be willing to sell?
There's always a chance that the timing chain is extremely loose and the cam gear has lost some nylon teeth and the chain is flopping around which could cause an irratic idle but it would likely be right at the point of jumping a tooth and when that happens it is not progressive. The only direction the timing jumps is by retarding the camshaft, not advancing. If you think about it all the pressure from the lifters/rockers/springs is holding the cam from moving and the crank moves and the cam stays in place for 1 tooth therefore retarding the cam 1 tooth, maybe more than one. For it to advance itself the cam gear would have to actually "catch up" to the crankshaft gear. If it jumps 1 tooth your distributor timing will also retard itself around 16*. That will almost not allow the car to idle. If it jumps more than 2 teeth you probably couldn't get it to run period not to mention valves could be meeting the pistons. If you think your cam timing has jumped(too late for the OP) and you check your timing and it has mysteriously retarded itself by a large amount then you may be onto something. When the distributor is reset to the correct timing the engine will actually idle fairly decently but when you give it the gas the car will be a dog and the carb, even a 2 BBL will howl like a Q-Jet when you give it the gas even though it won't really be accelerating fast. Been there done that on an original 350 2 BBL. I don't think a jumped timing chain will cause a rough idle or backfiring, just a slow idle and low power. Not that you can't have the teeth cracking off an original upper gear but retarding the timing to get it smoother just doesn't sound like the timing chain. If it was me I'd pop the valve covers off and make sure all rockers are moving up and down like they should and all about the same amount just eyeballing it while cranking, or running if you can. Also I'd do a compression test to get that out of the way before the timing cover comes off. It was mentioned already, check the plugs and how are the plug wires?
Finally started the project. Thought I'd write the timing cover removal I did for other to use in the future 1972 stock 350 timing cover removal: - Set #1 cylinder to compression stroke lined up balancer on the 0 timing mark - Marked & removed the distributor - Took off fan, Upper pulley, radiator shroud and belts - Drained the radiator, removed top and bottom rad hoses - Removed the hose from the Water pump to the intake manifold - Removed oil filter - Remove fuel pump, I just removed the two timing cover bolts and connection to carb, then tie wrapped out of the way (avoid leaking gas) - Removed the pulley from the crankshaft - Removed ignition coil out of the way (single bolt holding it on) - Removed the radiator so I could use my 1/2" impact wrench on the balancer bolt (Harbour Freight cheapo, worked great) - Made sure timing mark was still on 0 (had to adjust a little due to the impact movement) - Removed harmonic balancer (slid right off, no puller needed) - Removed bottom two oil pan bolts off to the timing cover - Took remaining bolts from cover to engine block off using cordless 3/8" impact gun (flipping forward/reverse slowly removed each) - Verified all timing cover bolts to engine block had been removed - Used putty knife at top of timing cover, between the gasket and iron engine block to gently pry timing cover loose - Once top was loose, I rocked the cover gently left to right to break the oil pan to cover bottom gasket (took care not to bend the oil pan lip) - The timing cover slid right off Notes: - Have large catch pan under the engine while removing timing cover bolts, coolant will drain from long water pump to block bolt when removed - I used ziplock bags to hold bolts from different areas bolts were removed from, labeled Oil pan bolts, timing cover bolts, etc... - Put bolts back in original locations loosely if not put into ziplock bags, helpful during reassembly - Took pictures of each stage while removing to aid in installation Findings: - Timing chain had not jumped a tooth (damn!!) timing dots lined up on top and bottom gears, but the chain is very loose - The timing chain had been replace before, no teflon teeth, it has top and bottom steel gears - Noticed the fuel pump eccentric had a lot of wear on it, the lobe had a groove and new fuel pump arm also showing wear - The oil slinger was in place but I suspect poor oil pressure to the cover area causing the timing belt and eccentric to wear out - I thought i had a crack on the timing cover, one of the long bolt holes from the water pump to the block looked like it had been over torqued and cracked, I removed the water pump and luckily it was only a casting flashing. No crack. - I did find that the cover must have had a bad water pump at one time, there was aluminum worn off on the backside of the cover, the current pump's impeller did not have any scoring on it, so it had been replaced before also. Good thing I never had any overheating problems. I will be continuing my investigation and will give updates as I find more.
Is your oil diluted with gasoline, thin and watery? If it is, a fuel pump and oil change may fix it. Or, maybe someone shoved a potato up your tailpipe?
Looks like taking the timing cover off was a waste of time. Timing chains are always on the loose side after they have been on for a while. From reading your first thread since you had to retard the timing to get the car to run right and it still is not right it sounds like you were one tooth off on installing the distributor. if you have a points system try using a different condenser in there since this can cause the engine to run rough. Make sure the wires in there do not touch ground.
If the distributor was installed and the engine was initially timed to say 4* BTDC, and then the distributor was removed and reinstalled one tooth over, then retimed to again 4* BTDC, the engine would run exactly the same. The only difference would be that the vacuum advance would be pointed in a different direction, that's all. Timing is timing. If someone installed a distributor on the wrong tooth, one of two things would happen. Either the user would run out of distributor travel trying to time it, or the user would be able to time the engine to what he wanted, but the vacuum advance would be pointed in an undesirable direction, like right at the fan.
I think this was a very good use of time. I now know I have eliminated the jumped tooth theory, but did find my timing chain is way to loose (1/2" play on each side) and I will be replacing timing set. I also found out I have a worn fuel pump eccentric (will be replaced). Knowing I have excessive wear on the timing chain and FP eccentric I will also will be checking the tolerances in oil pump and adding a booster plate to improve the oil pressure throughout the engine and timing cover area. It's obvious to me that the this area of the engine was in need of some attention, luckily I got to it before it became a much larger issue. Who knows, maybe the combination of the excessively loose timing chain and the fuel pump not pumping as well as it could be due to the worn eccentric, may be causing the engine issues. Once I get all of the replacement parts installed and everything back together. I'll report back.
I might have missed it if it's in the text, but verify the mark on the dampner. Qjet secondary well plugs can leak, even if it's been recently gone through. Double check the secondary lockout linkage isn't stuck somehow, or the choke fully opening. Retarded timing can cause all the symptoms described. Stick with it, you'll figure it out.
The dampner mark was lined up on 0, when i took off the timing cover the timing gear dots were lined up. I will make note of your other suggestions as I continue. Thanks
Hey Big Todd, you checked your timing chain for slop by turning the crank backwards to see how far you could turn it before the dist rotor turned and it was 1/8 turn what exactly is that? My crank moves 8 degrees backwards on the timing tab before the rotor moves backwards. If thats too much I may be taking off my 350 cover too.
At actual TDC cylinder 1 mine is pointing at cylinder 1, but I thought spark plug fire occurred before TDC?
It does according to engine RPM and how quick the mechanical advance comes in. Remember 1* of distributor rotation is 2* at the crank. You really can't eyeball it, we are talking very small distances. There will always be some slack in the chain after the engine is run awhile.
Pulls out trusty slide rule...hmm 8, tan, times 1" radius...=.140 So 8 is about 1/8" of chain slack. Speaking for myself, I don't think that is all that bad. Then again, since it is all on the tension side, it means that the cam is at least 4 retarded from when it was set up, and closer to 8.</pulls>
