Oil filter question/knocking when warmed up, 350 buick

My 1970 350-2bbl engine is getting a loud rhythmic ticking sound that starts after about 7-10 minutes and goes away when revved up (only at idle). Pulled plug wires one at a time to see if it stops, didn't make any difference. Put heavier oil and/or Marvel mystery oil after oil change, still no difference. Had the flywheel/cover checked as well, nothing found. Also went over the engine with a stethoscope, but it seems that the valve covers, timing cover, exh. manifolds, oil pan, oil pump, etc. all have the same light ticking sound in the scope, nothing that would blow your ears off. The only thing that seemed louder is the distributor cap, but I'm not sure what that's supposed to sound like in the scope.

Oil pressure seems normal, at idle about 40 when cold and 20 when hot.

I did notice that the dist. rotor has some up and down play, like when you pull up on it it clicks twice, like a quick bum-bump, is that normal?

One mechanic said that the oil filter is too small (??), so I went to the store to check them. It does have what looks like a smaller oil filter than the one in the store, are there 2 different sizes? The AC Delco PF24 is the larger size, while the Purolator L25288 is the smaller size (similar to mine). Can the wrong size filter contribute to untoward engine noises?

---------- Post added at 12:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:49 AM ----------

Forgot to mention one more thing, the knocking sound is rhythmic with the engine, but tends to stop for 1 or 2 knocks every once in a while, then start knocking again

 

sorry to hear, this does not sound good, how many miles? the way your describing it sounds like a combination of issues. possible lifter noise but if it has a lot of miles on it there will be other related problems, lifters if worn will probably be dog dished and also rockers are aluminum not stamped steel, subject to wear esp in the cupped area that holds pushrods they always crack, if lifters are old cam will be fried and so on and so on trust me I recently went though this but I was lucky test results on cyl comp was excellent on all 8. Do a vacuum test first and cyl comp test second this will help decisions that you'll need to make later... gl I doubt its an oil filter issue

 

First thing, the correct oil filter for the Buick 350/455 is the AC PF24, OR equivalent. The smaller filter your describing sounds like the AC PF47, which is for the 231 Buick V-6. BUT, for that smaller filter to fit on the older V-8 covers, SOMEBODY had to have been monkeying around with the filter adapter and or timing cover. Does the filter/pump cover say "METRIC" on it? Post pics of the filter in question, and the filter adapter/pump cover if you can.
The above mentioned will not in and of itself cause any issues, BUT, if the timing cover was changed, and or serviced, and they didn't know what they were doing, they may have run the engine with no oil pressure, causing bearing damage (cam, main, or rod) from not priming the oil pump before start-up.
Post more info, such as mileage, what was all done to the engine (that you know of) and those pics I mentioned if possible.

 

Where would the metric label be on the timing cover? I Will try to post pics. Does this mean I can't put the larger filter on? (PF24)?

 

just inboard of the filter on a slight ridge "metric" is cast right into the metal .
PF47 - PF24 : same gasket size , dif thread size .
if someone redid the front cover and failed to pack gears with petroleum jelly it will not prime correctly , or maybe at all = no oil pressure . ok for a few seconds but -------- ?

 

Deadmanscurve, what gears are we talking about with the petroleum? My oil pressure seems to be OK (well, assuming it's OK based on the description below), and when it's cold, it runs perfectly quietly. The tapping noise only starts when it's been running for about 5-7 minutes and only at slower idle speeds.

Brownbomber, when you say you went through this, was it the same problem, only at idle and when hot? It doesn't appear to be lifters bec. I went over both valve covers with the scope and the sound does not appear to be coming from them. I checked vacuum it appeared OK as well.

 

Is it a tick or a knock?

I had a really bad "pink" from bad nylon rocker retainers that was scary as heck. It even rattled coming of the gas:shock:

Does coming off/ going on the gas make a difference to the noise? (Lower end, mains/rods respectively)

If it's in the uper valve train you can normally pull the valve covers and see/ hear it in 30 seconds (think sewing machine).

Lifters tend to be when all else is eliminated, with the engine runing push down on them and see if they collapse & try wacking them with a rubber mallet right over the pushrod (frees check balls)

Here's a cool link for the whole shake down: http://buicks.net/shop/reference/noisy_valve_lifters.html

I'd only add to this work through to put a dot of white nailpolish or something on the push rods and make sure they turn... If they don't > not written in stone but a good sign there's the trouble.

If you do all the above and don't find it in the valve train...

yank the intake and pray the lifters are bleeding. (big pools of oil round them)

The issue with oil filters is they need a check ball in them, a v6's would. I've heard talk around shops the real issue is if someone puts a regular chevy filter on it... but them the oil pressure sits at 0.
If they didn't prime you on a repair, the weakpoint is the cam bearing> and that may fit your distributor noise...

Hope that helps

 

OK will attempt to download pic:

 

Well, that didn't work, lol. Here goes another try

 

Uh-oh :rant:

Just checked today while taking pic's. Oil filter that is on there is a Mighty M159 Engine Guard II, which was put on by Meineke during the last oil change last summer. It was making the same noise before the oil/filter change, but prob. had the same size filter before as well. It is listed on the web (Ebay) as being for several mid-1990's GM cars (??!!).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mighty-M159...Parts_Accessories&hash=item20dc0862a6&vxp=mtr



Hmmm.....

 

Do you have an oil pressure gauge on it?

You say 20 psi hot, is that hot after driving on the highway for half hour, then coming to a stop? Or just the coolant being up to temp by idling? The oil gets up to temp from load, not idling.
Also check for leaks around the exhaust manifolds

 

It drops to about 20 psi at idle after running for about 15 minutes, it's really more like 15-20 and goes to about 35-40 when revving up the engine. I will check the exh. manifold except that the drivers side has a metal shield over it. Would I hear it thru the shield with the stethoscope?

 

Is 40 the max pressure with high rpm? Seems a little low. Pressure relief would be 50 or 60 I would think. But maybe not if you have a v6 filter housing.

 

Yes it does not go above 40 no matter how hard you rev the engine (when hot).

Judging from the pic I posted above, does that look like the V6 or the V8 housing? I know it's a little hard to see, hard to get the camera down there in a dark garage with snow outside lol

MisterVanBuick, I don't hear anything when getting on/off the gas and it def. does not sound like a sewing machine. More like tick-tick-tick-tick-pause-tick-tick-tick-pause-tick-tick-tick-tick-tick-pause, etc. (random pauses). When you're standing in front of the engine, if you bend your head down in front of the engine it sounds like it's right in front of your face, but I can't find any unusual noise with the stethoscope. Had it on the timing cover, oil pump, fuel pump, valve covers, exh. manifold (shield on dr. side), oil pan, all have the exact same slight ticking sound thru the steth, but no one area is louder than the other.

Only unusual thing I noticed with the steth is a noticeable grinding/rhythmic sound from the distributor cap, and a slight chain-rattling noise from the timing cover. Keep in mind, none of these noises are there when the engine is cold.

Is the cam bearing/distributor thing something that can be fixed easily?


Been chasing this noise since the summer, 3 diff. mechanics could not figure it out, including one here in NJ that builds race Buicks! Still exactly the same 6 months and 1000 miles plus later. Very frustrating!!

 

40 psi max oil pressure Tells me you still have the stock relief spring in there, which is fine as long as your not revving the engine past 4 grand. The stock relief spring is set to open at 38 psi, typically you'll see 40, as your seeing.
To properly get the oil up to temp. you have to DRIVE the car, on the highway for about half hour. Driving the car stop and go, or idling it WONT get the oil hot.

 

Check the power steering pulley -> pull on it a little it and see if it clicks real loud, then check it running (it's a place many forget to check)

Have you stuck it on the oil pan? The problem is these things rattle and echo uzzled:


I think one of the best ways to do this its through the internet is with youtube video clips (used to work for a car repair website)

Does it sound like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWCvuxTPs_8&list=PLDC9251D8269FA999

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4B3MJVX8MQ (at 2:02 ish)

or can you find another? My ears are better trained then my brain at this stuff.

I'd lean more towards calling the old girl being worn out and a bit loose in clearance somewhere, have you ever tried to baby it with synthetic?
If so throw in some heavy wal-mart oil and re-gum it up:laugh:
Good news is some engines do the worn click and go another 100k (My wife's POS VW Golf)

 

I put the steth on the oil pan, same slight noise as the other areas mentioned above.

I have looked at many youtube videos, it sounds more like the first video but faster and not quite as metallic sounding, and it goes away when revved up.

 

I think you need to test the cylinders, yank the wires one by one of the dizzy while it's tapping and see if it stops. Just don't get zapped :laugh:. If it sounded like either video it normally means massive suckage.

Trying to think of any other positive endings for you... you could run ATF (not type F) through it for 50 miles next oil change and see if that clears it much better than other junk. If the cylinders pass listen to the bell housing on the trans (I'm trying to remain hopefull for you)... I'd also go with Brownbombers sugguestion to vacuum test it.


But it's sounding like internal repair is a must, and ripping into a 30 year old engine is hardly ever a little affair... even if you just go cam up, with cam goes the timing chain & the lifters, with the lifters goes the pushrods, goes the rockers... and that's when your 100% sure it'll fix.

 

Don't forget today's oils don't lubricate like they used to. With higher engine temps and more egr volumes with roller cams the oils are not designed for flat tappet lifters. And with more detergent to keep carbon build up down. You can find out more on Joe Gibbs racing site.so if its a flat lobe on cam look at the oil.

 

MeistierVanBuick, I already did the pulling-the-plug-wires test a few weeks ago, went thru all 8 and it still made the noise each time. Does that mean I can eliminate the lifters/internal engine issues?

By vacuum test, do you mean measuring the vacuum with a vac. gauge thru the intake manifold? If so, I have done that too. Plugged the vac. gauge into manifold vacuum source, and it's about 15-20psi at idle.

Have not done the ATF yet, but I did add a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil at the last oil change, and it did not help either.

By the trans bell housing, do you mean the inspection cover or the actual trans? If it was trans related, would it still make the noise in park and neutral?