Measuring for lifter preload

When measuring the preload, are there companion cylinders that can be measured at the same time?
if so which ones? Or should I just go ahead and do one at a time?
I really would like to do this without pulling the intake.
Looking for the quickest way to measure all 16 if there is such a way.

Tony

 

Thank you very much for the detailed procedure, it is much appreciated.
I'm going to print this out and file it in the Buick book.

Tony

 

I have done three adjustments trying to quiet the valvetrain a little. (Sounding like a sewing machine on both sides)
Started with .035, .050 and finally .090 with no success. On the second try I noticed that there were about four lifters that you could depress with the rocker if you push on it. I figured it just bled down faster then the others.
On cold start it sounds normal but as soon as the engine comes up to temperature and coming to a stop or just idling the noise begins. As far as I can tell the noise goes away under any rpm other than idle.

So I took the intake off today to inspect the lifters, none of them were able to be pushed down this time. Weird since I know exactly which four they were. So I take them all out marking each one as I go and the all look good. Checked the cam for any wiped out lobes, if there are any it is not noticeable by my eye.

Alright so here's the question, if you manually bleed down a (Delphi) lifter and then release the pressure and the plunger does in fact move back up. Should you now be able to depress the plunger with your finger, even a little bit?
Mine don't move at all and I'm using quite a bit of force here to try to depress them. I know there is problably still some oil in there but I was able to bleed them down pretty far with a clamp, block of wood and an old push rod checker.

Somethings causing the rocker noise just not sure what. Changing lifter preloads are having no effect on the noise.
Any ideas what could be going on here?

Tony

 

What are you adjusting? Do you have roller rockers or adjustable pushrods and stock rocker bar?

 

Adj. pushrods, stock stamped steel rockers and hardened shafts from TA

 

I too have tried EVERYTHING your trying, if in fact you can depress the lifter plunger BY HAND WITH OIL IN THE LIFTER, that lifter is no good, it should require quite a bit of a MECHANICAL ADVANTAGE to depress that plunger, as you've found out.
Lifters generally will give a light tick tick tick sound, rocker noise will usually be a clack clack clack.
What exactly is your set up?
Cam?
Roller rockers?
Pushrods?
Oil pressure, hot idle?

 

It is clacking not ticking. Using TA's 310 cam, Delphi lifters, shafts & steel rockers and adj. push rods.
Hot oil pressure at idle is 30

It seems the lifters are fully pumped up and are stuck there which is allowing all the preload to only go to the springs. This is what it appeared to me when I took the intake off.

Tony

 

Well I'm not sure if I made the right decision here, but today I decided to put everything back together with a new set of
TA1405J lifters with .060 preload using the above mentioned method while the intake was off this time.
I'll do the break in tomorrow afternoon and ray: it works.

Tony

 

Its worth a try.
I tried nearly every lifter out there, and ended up with the same symptoms, intermittent clack clack clack.
It started when I switched to the TA 310 cam in my 350
When I swapped to the TA 413 cam and removed the inner spring for break in, I noticed everything was quiet:Brow:
A few months later I put the inner spring back in, and sure enough, clack clack clack, I was expecting that
All the times I've had my 350 out and apart, I've critiqued EVERY part, and found NOTHING out of sorts, as a matter of fact, the 310 cam I had in there for over 10 years was perfect, so were the lifters, absolutely perfect wear pattern on the foot of the lifters.
The only thing that changed ANYTHING was the removal of the inner springs, the only thing I could figure is with only the outer spring theres less pressure and its setting the valves down easier on the seat, or something like thato No:

 

Have you done something with the heads that would require you to have adj pushrods?

 

Wow, what a laugh this morning! I'm sitting here reading this and can't get over how much un nessassary work I just finished up. I see I did not use this board to my advantage this time around. I should have started with the valvetrain first, not the preload question. I just uninstalled a perfectly sealed intake and a set of perfectly worn brand new looking set of lifters.
The noise started when the inner springs were installed. Without the springs there was no noise.
Thanks for sharing again Mark, at least I won't be disappointed when I hear the same clack,clack,clack today.

Tony

 

Yea, tip heights are inconsistent which is why there was a need for two different size push rods in the first place.
I went with the adjustable to get the preloads more consistent then just a rounded figure. When I gave the measurements to TA the first time, we decided to stay on the lower end of preload to stay with the solids. But after hearing the clatter I thought there was not enough preload so that is why I just went with the adjustable tubes.

Tony

 

Removal of the inner spring on a dual spring set, will typically result in about 75-90 lbs of seat pressure. And yes, this will run quietly.

The ugly truth is that Buick engines in general have marginal valvetrain geometry, which often worsens when you start working on them.

Getting near an "over center" situation with the rockers is the biggest concern, exceptionally high initial force is required to open the valves, and this really beats up the lifters.

Any increase in force, from high tension springs, to higher rocker arm ratios can in fact cause lifter noise issues, and rpm limitations.

Likewise, aggressive cam lobes attack the lifters from the other side.

I recall one iron head 455 on the dyno that we knew the tip heights were too high on, but there was nothing that could be done. Too many aggressive valve grinds removed the material, and even the shorter 409 Chev valves would only get the tip height to the top of the "tolerable" range. Someone had previously spent a lot of money porting the heads, so we figured we would give it a try, and see if we could make it all work.

Valve train was noisy, rpm was limited to 5400 with 1.65 ratio roller rockers.

Bolted on a set of stamped steel rockers, and it was night and day.. great reduction in noise, and rpm to 6000.. made more power too..

That motor had just the right conditions that just the rather minor increase in open force requirements due to the high ratio rockers, pushed it over the edge into failure.


You have not mentioned what valve springs your using, or where they are set up, pressure wise.. Keep in mind that single springs often have higher seat pressures that dual sets.

I have had the best all around luck, with a flat tappet hyd cam, running the TA 1107 spring set, installed at 115-120 on the seat, around 275 open, this will allow most 5500 rpm BBB's with stock weight parts and factory valve-trains to achieve max rpm.

I have always run the least valve spring pressure I can get away with, with a margin of safety of course.

Stiff valve springs are not your friend, when it comes to the quest for quiet valve-trains.

JW

 

Glad you figured out it was the Lifters . I was worried when you told me the old heads with old push rods were breaking rockers . Sounded like preload or length issuses . that is probably why the lifters were worn & they were quite .

Also the rockers breaking with the single spring indicates you had the worng length push rod from is the start . Hence the lifter crashing ,wearing out them out & Breaking rockers .


I will call you

 

When I was running a KB Mark 2 cam back in the 80's (.477 int .493 exh) with stock Buick springs and rockers it was quiet. It was when I pushed the lift over .5 that my noise started, hmmmmmmmmmmp
When I was breaking in my TA 413 cam with the outer spring, it still pulled strong to 6000 rpm, and everything was quiet, I was figuring "I'll just leave it as is" but figured "I better put the inner spring back in"
It pulled as strong as before, but the clacking is back:blast:

 

Your welcome, been there done this, so to speak, LOL, I threw in the towel on noisey valve trains on Buicks, unless theres something obviously wrong.
I remember trying every lifter there was, disassembling them, theres not a lot to 'em, looking at pushrods, retainers, guides, valve stems, checking this, measuring that, never came across anything obvious.
What Jim said is very interesting, wish I had known that years ago:eek2:

 

Well no surprises here, it's not the lifters.
after the break in it's still clackin away like a sewing machine.
I'm going to leave it alone, let it ride and see what happens. I'm finished messing with "this" motor.

Tony