I found this lifter bore brace on the Pontiac site. I know the lifter bore design on the buick is a little different. But do you think this could work on a buick block. With some minor mods to the attachment points? I think this is a nice spin on the line of thought currently being used with the buick block of filling it with titanium putty or TA's girdle. I think it's always Smart to look at new ideas. :Smarty:
so is this an inch thick aluminium bar machined to fit the surface of the walley? Id be worried about they'r initial contact, some pressure points on the block are bound to wear over time, getting that chunk of metal loose inside the engine. if it was suspended by some putty Id probably give it a go. are the pontiac guys having any luck with this?
Terrance: I'd say no it won't work. Our casting is completely different. With its design and specific application to fit a Pontiac engine and the way its held in place it looks like a "cheezy" piece at best. Trying to modifiy and reengineer that piece would eat up so much time you'd be far ahead just getting the correct TA girdle to start with. Any amount of loose fitment will negate its effectiveness and being held down with threaded rod and washers and what appears to be machine screws into the casting it will loosen over time when the block is stressed and flexes. It won't fit tightly where it is supposed to if trying to adapt it to our blocks. The TA girdle, while a bear to install correctly, definitely is a quality piece and does the job its intended to do. I quit counting how long it took to install the TA girdle in my block. But any two bolts (out of the four) can be removed and it doesn't move at all. Measuring and installing the proper shims under each bolt is the trick. You don't want any flexing of the block when you tighten the end bolts down. That's just my take on it. Are you planning on running a camshaft profile aggressive enough to peel the bosses out of the block anyway?
Lifter bores on a Pontiac are the weak point of the block. If you run a cam with over .640 lift you run the risk of breaking the lifter bores. There are a few different versions of the brace, but they all seem to work and get the job done. --- One of the reasons the '73/'74 Super Duty 455 blocks and Ram Air V blocks are so valuable is that they already have extra webbing in the lifter bore area. = no brace required. Here is another (more common) version of the Pontiac lifter bore brace. As far as I know Buick blocks don't have any problems with the lifter bores breaking so it would probably be a waste of time.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :ball: :ball: :ball: The Pontiac stock block looks pretty compared to a Buick! That's what we get for having the lightest big block of all GM makes. They DO break!
Thanks for the responses on this I do agree it does look like it's not as good as what is being done to the buick lifter bores now be it T A's girdle or the titanium putty. It just amazes me to see how two people can look at the same thing and come up with a completely different way of doing the same thing. I think that if I had not fallen in love with buicks early on I would have a pontiac that is my second favorite 455 motor. I'm planning on running a custom solid lift cam. to take full advantage of my head flow. I will be turning this motor pretty hard so I was thinking to be on the safe side. I should have a lifter girdle. maybe overkill. ou:
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Doing searches of older threads can turn up a treasure of thought inducing information. Stumbled across this older thread and was examining the photo of the "lifter brace" for a Pontiac in the opening post of this thread that appears to be poured or cast zinc. I wondered, in view of so many concerns of using epoxy to fill the lifter bore area for bore support and/or windage control; has anyone considered or tried pouring this area with zinc or aluminum(scrap cans are too cheap to sell). I've poured Olds and Pontiac head exhaust crossovers with good results and figured it may work here. There would no longer be the issue of crumbling/cracking epoxy contaminating the oil and using present oiling restrictions to the upper end, drain back passage size could be re-examined. Then again, this may be a mute point. What are your thoughts? Jay
First off: and this is no slam to any product. OUR BLOCKS SUCK!!! THis is the best sale reason for spending about 6 grand for a new aftermarket block. By the time you are done with all the band aids on a stock block, you get up there around 3-4 grand just on the block! And its still an old heavy design. Problem is 6 grand is a big nut for most. The TA lifter girdle is a good piece. I had one installed on my 800 hp engine. AAANNND I still broke a lifter bore. Why? Well I found out later that after a few runs it is recommended that you pull the intake and re-check the hold down screws because they tend to loosen. Most likely they did in my case as a few were lose. The Pontiac lifter bore brace. I was shown this by Paul Pirnot at the Cecil Meet a few years back. Where it differs is that if it is machined correctly to the particular lifter galley it will give support all around the lifter bore where as the TA version only has one point that it directs support. I would not rule the Pontiac piece out, it does work. When I re-did my engine my engine builder was extremely pissed on my engine blowing up, yes it cost me, but he takes pride in his work and it was like one of his babies. He wanted to give the lifter bore support all around it. THe TA version applies support to the weakest part of the bore, The Pontiac version does support all around the lifter bore, but the key is you have to spend time properly machining the piece to fit snug around each one of the lifter bores. Otherwise its useless. He decided to go the epoxy route and felt it was the strongest. So on the new one he went the devcon epoxy route. We first picked the best of 6 blocks that had the most meat in the lifter bores. He prepped the block and stuck dowels inside each lifter bore and after grinding into the lifter galley poured the devcon. He went higher than the actual lifter bore which is now UNDER the devcon. The dowels prevented the bores from filling up. After all the filling of the block and lifter bore galley the block sat for about 3 months so that there is no question on it curing. He then machined between each lifter bore with a groove so that the roller lifters can fit. He then honed and cleaned out the lifter bores and added vent tubes and a modified oiling system feeding the mains from lines plumbed in from the front of the block. (see photo) Yes it was costly. He advised me that after four or five good racing events it would be a good idea on pulling the intake to inspect thing. Yes this is a pain and no matter what route we take this seems to be the best thing to do. Bottom line the faster you go, the more maintenance you have to do. So far everything is holding up fine. Oh and the current engine is almost a clone to my previous one, with over a 700 lift, roller, pushing 800 hp. Which do I recommend...pick your poison. They all work if proper installed and if they are watched over the racing season. I would only recommend any type of lifter brace if you plan on running high HP or a very high lift cam. For your average street strip racer...pass on this, you won't need it.
Ric, that was the reason I asked about pouring the lifter valley with molten zinc or aluminum. The pour would conform to that particular block casting and in my thinking would offer the all around support without machining and without the cracking/crumbling epoxy. Oh well, just a thought:idea2: . Jay
You would still need some machine work as far as the venting and depending how high you go up. As far as the cracking. I had found the edges of the epoxy peel up a bit and spoke to other guys and they said this is normal, but the epoxy is still holding. John Gudiatus (sp?) suggested this to me a while back, on what you suggest. It does seem to make sense. Just that you won't find any machine shop offering this, so it would have to be something done by the owner, who for the most part is not experienced in this. I have not heard of anyone actually doing this, which leads me to ask, "Why?" Maybe some one who is a machinist and engine builder can comment on this. Bottom line though is it is another costly band aid. I would guess the best argument that Mike T/A puts to us regarding an aftermarket block is that we spend about the same amount beefing up a standard block when for a little more we can get a newer, lighter and stronger "new designed" block that needs no band aids and has no power limitations. Problem for most of us is the initial cost on getting one.
Typically zinc or aluminum will shrink when it cools. I could see the material literally poping off lifter valley once it cools.
Yes the Buick blocks have much to be desired. Most anyone can look at one and figure that out. For the last several years I have been content to run the horsepower level I do just to stay away from breakage. I like to run with the NMCA and travel the country to do it. That takes money. I had rather spend the money to go race for a Championship, than build an engine on the edge just to say how fast I could go. In our class we run off index's and I know some don't like that, but that is all I can afford. Back to the lifter bosses, I have broke one with a lot less power than Ric and not that radical cam. I keep my rpm down and have change to a cam I hope is less stressful on the bosses. Folks, they are not much. I'm getting to be an old man, but I still want to go fast. When the new block is out and proven, I will be going for one and hope to really pick up my old car. For now I pray the stuff hangs together so I can go have fun. Jim Nethelrand 2007 NMCA Nostalgia Super Stock World Champion
