While it is always a "debatable" topic, it is an interesting subject. I noticed a few things in the Top 50 Fastest Car lists, and thought I'd get some of you thinking. These are ACTUAL RECORDED 1/4 mile times!:TU: In the list of the Top 50 Fastest Musclecars ever built, a '70 GS Stage 1 was ranked #9, at 13.38@105.5. Pretty impressive. In a seperate list, the Fastest "Modern" Domestic Musclecars ever built, the '70 GS Stage 1 would've fit in at #10, losing only to Vipers and Corvettes! Coming in at #11, the 1996 Camaro Z28 SS, 13.46@106.48, 350 LT-1 310 6-Speed. Appearing in that same list, of the Top "17" Fastest MODERN Domestic Musclecars, coming in at #16, the 1987 Buick GNX 13.70@102, 231 Turbo V6, automatic. No Comment. In the list of the Fastest Import Cars, the '70 GS Stage 1 still comes in 3RD (13.38@105.5), only after the 1st place 2001 BMW M Roadster 13.1@107.6, 3.2 I6, 5-Speed MT, and the 2nd place 2001 BMW M3 Coupe 13.2@106.9, 3.2 I6, 6-Speed. I've always been "told" (by Chevy guys) that the 454 LS6 WAS "FASTER" than the Buick 455! In comparison, according to this same list, the '70 Chevelle 454 LS6 had a FOUR SPEED transmission, while the Buick had a 3 Speed AUTOMATIC. If we could get the Buick to "equally" MATCH the Chevelle, what do you think the outcome would be? Compare how close they ARE: '70 Chevelle SS454 13.12@107.01, 454 LS6 4-Speed 3.55 '70 Buick GS Stage I 13.38@105.5, 455 Stage I automatic 3.64 2/10ths of a second, as they ARE?! How about putting that "extra" gear in the Buick to make up for that? What do you say?:Brow: (The Chevelle doesn't have a chance!):Smarty:
50 fastest cars scott, ive heard of the 50 fastest list a few times. i could of sworn the list i saw had the 1970 gs stage 1 as the #3 fastest. what cars were ahead of the stage 1 in the list you saw? im talking about the old muscle car list.
Re: 50 fastest cars Jan 1970 edition of Motor Trend behing the 427 Cobra and Vette which are two seat cars. Also came in 3rd in the 1997 Popular Mechanics test behind the GN and Viper. It finished ahead of the LS6 in both tests.
You must also remember that these "lists" take 1/4 mile times from the late 60's/ early 70's on bias ply tires (don't bring up Greg Gessler please) that do not have anywhere near the traction that modern high perf radials have. Put some tire under that Stage 1 with a decent tune-up in it and see what happens. The quickest stock Viper I've seen out at our track runs 12.90's (on street tires). It's no dog by any means, but I do enjoy wasting his $75,000:jd: sportscar with my big boat.:Brow:
Re: 50 fastest cars Car Review did the list twice. The first time they included road tests from, I believe, four period car mags. 70 Stage 1 was #3. People wrote in mentioning tests from other mags, and they re-did the list a couple of years later, using about 8 magazines. That's when we dropped to #9.
My experience is that if the LS-6 Chevelle has 3.31 gear (standard) the Stage 1 will be quicker. If the Chevelle has 4.10 it's all over....solid cam 454 likes (needs) gear. Same deal with the Hemis that I used to race against in the early 80s. If they all have 3.42s then the Stage 1 will win every time. (talking totally, real stock cars here) I think the 2 seater cars should be on another list! Bruce
Re: Re: 50 fastest cars Plus the 66-427 Cobra weighed 2529:eek2: , the 66 427 Corvette weighed in at 3160. The Buick? 3810! Wonder what would happen if we dropped a BBB into a Cobra, I'd like to see that!
I try not to take any of those tests too literally. People have mentioned different times with different gears. That's just one variable. How the cars are optioned, track conditions, weather and driver skill are a few others I can think of, not to mention that some (not all, but some) of those old road tests mention that the engine was "blueprinted". I know that doesn't necessarily mean much, but I bet that it ran at least a little better than a motor that came off the production line, which brings up another variable: production tolerances. I don't mean to shoot down these lists, or the fact that the GS455 has placed high on some, but like I said, there are so many variables that it's tough to compare one test to another. Have a look in Road & Track, Car & Driver and Motor Trend at the times for say a new Camaro or Vette or Viper and you'll probably find a different time in each magazine. Now I'm suppose the compare these numbers with ones from 30-40 years ago ? I'll take rough numbers along with details of the car and test, but I don't buy specific numbers with non-specific information. Sorry for the rant. I'm not trying to insult anyone, but I remember back before I got into hot rod mags I read R&T, C&D and M/T and I always saw different times for the same cars. Even the same mag, but a different issue would give a different time for the same type of car.
Brien You are right on the mark. Anyone who actually puts any real stock in these lists needs to join the real world!! :spank: That said, they DO make for great bench racing!!:grin:
Re: 50 fastest cars Even without the "2 seater" cars (Cobra, Corvettes), that would only move the GS up to #6 on the list! I'll delete these cars out and show you how the cars would compare: '69 Road Runner 12.91@111.8 440 Six BBL 390 4-Speed 4.10 '70 Hemi Cuda 13.10@107.12 426 Hemi 425 4-Speed 3.54 '70 Chevelle SS454 13.12@107.01 454 LS6 450 4-Speed 3.55 '69 Camaro 13.16@110.21 427 ZL1 430 4-Speed 4.10 '70 Road Runner 13.34@107.5 426 Hemi 425 automatic 4.10 '70 Buick GS Stage I 13.38@105.5 455 Stage I 360 automatic 3.64 Let's "analyze" this list, shall we?:Smarty::TU: Notice one "common" factor: The FOUR "FASTEST" cars have "4 SPEED" TRANSMISSIONS! The 2 "Slowest" cars have "AUTOMATIC" (3 SPEED) Transmissions.ou: How about if they ALL had "Automatics", or if they ALL had "4 Speeds"? That would be a more "fair" comparison, to see how they would actually perform. Let's rule out some other factors. Let's narrow it down to rear end gears, as they are used here. Eliminate all of the 4.10 rear ends, as it would not be used as a "Stock/Street" gear (for comparison purpose only). 3 cars are now removed from that list: The #1 car '69 Road Runner, #4 '69 Camaro, and #5 '70 Road Runner! That leaves the '70 Hemi Cuda, the '70 Chevelle 454SS, and the '70 Buick GS. Now, since we've already eliminated the cars with the 4.10 rears, lets eliminate all of the 4 Speed cars out of the list, to compare: #1 '69 Road Runner OUT (4.10 AND 4 Speed) #2 '70 Hemi Cuda OUT (4 Speed) #3 '70 Chevelle SS 454 OUT (4 Speed) #4 '69 Camaro OUT (4.10 AND 4 Speed) #5 '70 Road Runner OUT (4.10) Winner by "default" would be the ONLY CAR LEFT out of this list: '70 Buick GS 455 Stage 1 (only car with "STREET" gears AND a 3 SPEED AUTOMATIC transmission!)o No: :bglasses: :Smarty: :TU:
50 fastest i wanna comment about the article jim mentioned by popular mechanics in 1997. theres no way a stock gn is gonna take a 1970 gs stage 1. in 1987 a fellow mechanic i was working with bought a brand new 1987 gn. no matter how hard he tried he could not get out of the 14s. this gn was bone stock. if i recall the best he ever did was 14.55 e.t. i forgot his m.p.h. i would like to know the particulars of that test. the gnx might of given the stage 1 a good race, but a gn? no way! this goes to prove you can take some of these magazine road tests with a grain of salt.
Re: 50 fastest Even those 2 in comparison: '70 Buick GS Stage I 13.38@105.5, 455 Stage I, automatic '87 Buick GNX 13.70@102, 231 Turbo V6, automatic Joke. Not bad for a "V6", but not good for a "Small Block Vs. Big Block" comparison.o No:
Re: 50 fastest I assume you know the shootout article. Fo those who are not, it can be found on the web by using the terms "Shootout , Muscle car and Popular Mechanics." What you say is true. The GS in that article was John Chamberlain's and it too was not like it came out of the show room. With just a chip change etc. we all know the gn can be made competitive or for the money top dog. I think the important fact to be gleaned is that the same car(s) are around the top if included in all the tests.
50 fastest jim, i cant seem to find that shootout. would you mind telling me the e.t.s of the cars? i know around 1997 the show MY CLASSIC CAR did a road test on john chamberlains 1970 gs 455 stage 1. john was turning low to mid 12s but the show reported on tv that johns car ran high 13s. when pressed why they did this the people of MY CLASSIC CAR admitted they thought all the other brand x car owners would call complaining that no stock stage 1 can run that fast. im sure johns car had ported heads and manifolds but it was all # matching.
I should have said "showdown": http://popularmechanics.mondosearch...out+1997+car+MUSCLED+muscle+MUSCLES+MUSCLING+ This link is complex - hope it works.
Back in 1987 I had a "match" race with an 87 GN (a guy here at work). He said he could take my 70 GSX Stage 1. I said No, I will run you with my 72 GS455 stock (NON Stage 1, low compression) convertible! It was a hot summer night so I didn't think the turbo would run too fast..... His first run right off the street was 14.78. Then I HELPED him cool it down (he is handicapped, hand controls) and it ran a 14.55 but not good enough......I ran a 14.30! I think he would rather have been beaten by the X! Got his car running 13.0s with bolt-ons a couple years later but this is how it played out stock. Bruce
Here a a couple links (of the entire lists) I've seen before - 50 Fastest Production Cars - American Muscle (GS is #16) 50 Fastest Musclecars (GS is #9)
Re: Re: 50 fastest cars I believe the same MT article tested a 4-speed Stage1 (same options) and it was slower :eek2:
