In addition to 10inch on the Plate system rockers...... The longer pivot point gives you a better arc radius thru the range of lift. You maintain a better lever point for a longer duartion of lift without running into a binding point. In a exaggerated point of veiw, the short rocker wants to "wrap around" the shaft sooner over a rocker thats longer with the same ratio. A longer rocker reduces pushrod motion on a horizontal plane that helps reduce pushrod deflection. Granted, most guys don't venture out in the extreme often and don't require such a setup. Lets face it, everyone is getting faster and the time is coming that if you want to keep up it will be something that you just have to do. It will eventually become more of the standard. Then maybe heads will come setup for the plate system off the shelf saving you a little coin and hassle. Only time will tell. For the record, my entire valve train is and has been TA. I have since upgraded from the "basics" roller to a custom ground cam off a "soft" roller blank provided by TA. The T&D plate system from TA and soon the TA rocker girdle for the old motor. I have changed from a TA lifter to a Shubeck Roller-X lifter to help control oil better, less lifter weight, better load carrying surface, and roller support. I know I am beyond the TA standard rocker. I plan on giving the rockers a workout with my 255 @.050 and .773 lift cam. :Brow: Who knows how much lift the next cam will in the new motor with a 55mm core to go off of. I guess it will depend how well the heads flow at .800+. :shock: Good pics of the rocker system Gary. :TU:
WHO DID I RIDICULE ? I understand the benefits of a td /jessel set up just tried to show its not the only option ,if nobodies interested so be it .
Holy Cow guys, this is the second thread in a short period where where either offhand comments or unconventional advice has got some people hot under the collar. I want to hear if somebody adapted a set of stamped steel SB Chevy rockers and why they did it if its ever been done. Would I personally do it? Hell No! Lets keep the ideas flowing and let the buyer make the final decision. This had been a great thread with just about every option presented nicely until just a few posts ago. I think cabin fever is getting the best of some of us here. How about a deep breath and count to ten. Yours Truly, Dr. Phil
Guys! Let's hold the phone here! First off I am no way knowledgeable as some on this thread, but let me throw some common sence into the mix here. And please can we have a nice discussion over a question posted on page one instead of on each other. 1. Let's be all real here guys. Buick guys me included are cheap. Ask ANY Buick vendor. No insult meant its just fact guys. 2. The large majority of the Buick guys run 455's that have less than 700 hp. 3. The smaller part of the Buick community run 750 hp or more with the V8's and those that do already accept the high cost of obtaining this. Speed and strengh = $$$$ My opinion: Generally speaking (and I said generally) if you are building a 455 that will have less than 750 hp you won't need a roller cam; If you don't use a roller cam, you don't need a fat super duty mega valve spring; If you don't use a monster valve spiring, you don't need exotic custom installed rockers. The standard T&D roller rockers sold for the V8 Buick will handle the the lower HP engines. My knocking on wood would be more for the strength of a 30 year old block. JW was correct regarding my heads. Proir to that I spoke to Gary on this and bought a set of individual rockers directly from T&D. T&D does not install the rockers I tried and they said they do not do this anymore. So I dumped them on Jim. So Gary you got a great deal at the time and definately have a great set up. And John you too when the Jesels came with the engine you bought, all included in the price of the engine. Had I looked to Jesel in the first place I would have had them. There is no dispute that they are stronger and better than the standard shaft rocker set up most of us use. But that mistake on my part is history. After giving up with extensive potential work Rob Chilenski bought them off of me. Greg Gessler now has them and is trying to install them on Rob's Stage 1 TE heads prior to any port work. Greg had told me it is a royal pain in the butt and if it wasn't that Rob and Greg are long time close friends the cost would be alot because of the labor involved. So for now I knock on wood...but lets be real, all of us running a 30 year old block pushing out 750 plus HP better be knocking on wood that the block itself holds up. Last point guys: The new Bulldog block. Stronger than the original yet only 26 or so were sold.....why??? I know why, but will never state my opinion on this on ANY board. Actually re-read #1 on the top of my post. I did buck up and buy one. After this year I for one will no longer be knocking on wood as I will have a Jesel setup along with a new block and all the right stuff. Sorry guys had to add this comic. Made me laugh a bit...
Ok, no where was it said,,,, ONLY BUY FROM TA. Yes, there is other product out there,,,, you buy from who you want. The issue is the guys trying to save a buck with parts that are not right and when it doesn't work they blame it on TA. Nothing wrong with trying to save money. God knows some of us have huge money put into these motors. The ones that do also understand that with building an off brand motor (Buick, Olds, Pontiac & Cadillac) you half to spend the money. Example: Pontiac Wencler head is $1400 this is a bare blank head. Then add the price of getting them ported. The Wencler head flows equivalent to a Stage 3 or 4 head after being ported. Olds Batten head bare is about $1500-2000, and flows 290 cfm. That is if you can find them! You can't always cut corners to save a buck. Did any of you guys ask Mike when making your decision on what springs to use, or did you just go off of what your machine shop guy said? If you did I'm sure Mike would have given you his reason for running his spring and it wouldn't be "I want you to buy my stuff". The guys that did have "Trouble" did you call Mike up and explain what happen or did you just take it upon yourself to assume Mike stuff is crap. Buick has a small diameter and a short valve spring. So you can't just throw another spring in there and expect it to work. It might look good on paper or in theory, but it doesn't always work. As far as price goes,,, I dont think Mike is out of line. He doesnt have the market that Chevy and Ford have,,, he isnt mass producing product. Hes giving you what you need and with that comes with a price. If you look up prices for the same parts for other off brand motors youll find he is in the same ballpark. You cant compare the Buick motor (parts, prices, availability) to Chevy or Ford, they are two different things. Thing is you got at least two here that run TAs set up running 8.0s and dont have any problems. So, maybe its not a problem with TAs product. If you going to run parts that are not compatible its not going to work, Jesel and T&D will tell you the something doesnt mean their product is any less reliable. You have the right to run what ever you want. But just because a few guys say that they have had no problem with the TA system, does not insinuate that we are tell you to only buy TA. Nor are they in TAs pocket or think he can do no wrong. I'm in no way trying to piss anyone off or bash any one. I'm not upset that someone else has an opinion, we all have the right to one. I just want all the facts out there for the guys that want the information.
I'm sorry If I took comments out of context.But I stand behind my opinion on the Jesel/T&D argument.I think it is the best choice for a buick race motor.Remember it's an opinion.Dave and Rod you guys are flying with the TA stuff.I never said that TA sells junk they have good products that have taken us to places no one else has.The thing is I want lots of options which we don't have.Any thing I can do to open up those options I'm going to do it and I am going to pass it on to others. I would like to appologize to Nitrous fish this was his thread that got high jacked Sorry
John.. geeze man.. calm down.. I clearly stated that I have seen and delt with broken TA rockers in this application, and also stated that a contributing factor to that is improper clearancing. Where am I not laying out the facts here.. in fact, that picture that Gary posted came right out of my shop.. that's the bench in my engine assembly room. I was excited to use this rocker system, until we got into the actual nuts and bolts of making it work. The biggest issue I had with it, besides milling off the rocker towers, and drilling and taping holes in the fully ported casting to mount the plates, was the pushrod holes.. To do it correctly, they should be plugged with a rod, welded, and then fixture drilled in the new location, which is all over the valve cover rail. I was not about to "hog out" the holes on Rick's brand new, very expensive cylinder heads. That's just not the type of work we do here. The cost/benefit anyalsis just did not pan out. I certainly did not present any false or slanted information, nor did I ridicule anyone for their opinion. I just presented mine, which is based on building a few different motors now with this setup, and also based on my knowledge of the buildups done by others, which would represent the vast majority of roller cam BBB's out there. JW
ANYWAY........... Hey Fish, Glad to see you're back into it,I stumbled across your site a few years back. Oh yeah......... Rick is right,Buick guys are CHEAP
Dave M. I did not take any of your comments as ridicule. Jim, Whenever I make a post to this site its sole purpose is to educate all who read the post. I spend countless hours here on the net, on the phone at my expense and at the track talking to whoever comes up to me and asks a question about Buicks. I have no agendas, ZERO MONETARY gains and I tell people who has the best parts available based on facts not my personal feelings towards one manufacturer vs. another. In my first post on this subject I posted some of the facts that I know about the two options of rocker arms. You came back with.... "After consulting with both my machine shops owners, and a buddy who is a ME specializing in metalurgy, and all three told us that considering the amount of machining required to install that setup, structrual integrity of that fully ported and very expensive cylinder head would be compromised." To me.... in my opinion....this statement is EXTREMELY misleading!!!! 1. What is wrong with the metal in the T/A cylinder head? 2. In what way will this weaken a cylinder head? 3. If we put these rocker arms on an unported set of cylinder heads will they be ok? OR.... Is this just to get people to buy from T/A? Your second post surely paints a much different picture of the way you feel about this rocker arm system. Which leads me to the thought that Rick did not use this rocker arm system because it was an afterthought that did not work out for various reasons. Not because it would weaken the cylinder head in any way. To All, Help others make good decisions on how to build an engine buy giving good solid information as to why a certain part is better. Dont just say... Well I have never had any problems. I had a friend who drove a Yugo and loved it. That doesn't mean it was a good car!!! Sorry if I over reacted!!!! I just want the person who wants the absolute best parts available to get the best parts available. It kills me to hear that someone is totally fed up with Buicks because the parts break or they take out bearings. These Buick engines can make comparable HP to ANY CHEVY, FORD or MOPAR if we start treating these engines like engines and not just a Buick. The same principals of engine building applies to all brands. Develop a good solid plan from beginning to end and you will be $$$$$ ahead. Thanks
John, That's the problem with these boards.. if you come into a post with a pre-conceived notion, you read more into it that is there. I read your response to my post, and I sat here wondering what the heck prompted that reply. Then I recalled other situations where you have accused me of having Mikes picture over the mantle.. You must have some idea in your head that I want folks to buy TA stuff because I get some kind of kickback or benefit from it. And your wrong, I pay the same as any other dealer out there. I use TA stuff for two reasons. To support the company who has invested heavily in these engines, and continues to do so, and because they make nice stuff. Not always perfect, but there certainly is a commitment to quality. A few of us "in the know" are aware of the fact that there are a group of folks out there, who want to take TA down. And that's fine.. let them try, but let them accomplish this by their own merits, and the products they can produce. That's always true in business, and there is no reason for anyone to cry about it. It's sad that jealousy and spite have affected so many of the Buick faithful, but hey.. nothing I can do about it, that's their deal. As to the heads.. In fact you have to do a whole bunch of milling, plug and weld pushrod holes and then drill the new holes at the correct angle ( or make big huge ones), drill and tap holes in them ect, then you have without question, compromised a casting. To mount that plate on the T&D's, you either have to put a shim between the plate and the head bolt hole (the hole is recessed in the head slightly) or you have to mill the entire top of the head down so that plate will sit flat across the holes. So you end up with either three washers and two spacers, and a 1/8 inch plate of steel between them between 5 of the most important head bolt holes, or you lose a whole bunch of the aluminum, and a fully ported head ain't that thick to begin with in the roof of the ports. And for sure, regardless of which way you go, you have changed the clamping situation of those head bolts. Anyone here done an engineering study on the effects of spreading the head bolt load out with a steel plate across the top 5 head bolt holes? Anyone?.. Buehler Buehler A few of you are sure certain this is the cats meow, but I wonder how in depth you have studied the entire effects, and possible side-effects, of the modification. One or two guys with them on a motor doesn't make a case study, or an engineering proof. Now granted, it's prolly gonna work out fine, but in my position, I have to weigh all the pros and cons of a process, and decide if it is a wise choice for a customer. So.. you either modify (some may say butcher) the head to make this stuff fit, or you carry a few extra rockers with you. Your comments on losing a whole weekend of racing because you break a rocker made me chuckle... And you want to talk about misleading.. Hell, I used to change rocker shafts between rounds, back in the day, before we bought our first set of TA Rollers.. could not keep a shaft in my KB ones, when we went to a Mark 5 HB cam. KB did not offer a good shaft.. I finally had to go to the girdle they sold for a while, until I bought a set of TA rollers. Mike had thought out his product well, and addressed the issues.. all of them. Those rockers, along with an SP-1 manifold, were the first products I ever bought from TA, back in about 1988. Yes, they were expensive, but I felt then, as I do now, that they were a good value. You need to get past this notion you have that I'm going to Poh-poh anything for one of these motors that TA does not make. The fact of the matter is that I buy the TA specific stuff from Mike, and it's in both my and my customer's interest to have a good relationship with all my suppliers.. recently I needed a set of alum heads for one of our board members here, and after one of the girls told me there were out of them, I had them put me thru to Mike, and he said "we will manage this for you Jim, and get you a set". This happens at all my vendors, because I have good relations with them, and won't engage in the silly grousing I see on the internet here, or read in other Buick related publications, from those folks who most certainly do have an agenda, beyond just helping folks out with some parts or knowledge. I'm not saying that you or your Dad are in this group John, but I tell ya' sometimes I wonder. As to this particular modification, and Rick's heads, we got these rockers midway thru the process.. had I had the opportunity to study the situation in depth at the onset of the project, I would have had Mike do me a set of heads with no pushrod holes.. and Mike certainly would have done that for me.. even knowing I was not going to use one of his products. He would have helped with as much tech support and advice as I cared to solicited from him, as he has done for me, and hundreds of other folks in the past. I'm sorry, but I see a lot of this stuff, and a bunch of folks going way out of their way to not have to buy from TA, and I wonder what the modivation is to work this hard. Will the Jessel/T&D individuals solve the potential rocker arm breakage issue with roller cam springs.. sure it will. Will the modification affect the heads, head gasket sealing, and ultimate reliablity of the entire engine, for every set of heads, and everyone who attempts this. Better think twice before you answer that question. Because I don't have that answer, and I am quite sure that no one on this board does either. Building an engine to this level is all about taking chances, and managing risks. Regardless of whose products you use, and that includes that elusive cast iron race block. I chose to advise my customers to carry a spare set of intake and exhaust rockers, as it is by far the lesser of two potential evils. JW
Jesel did the machine work on my heads.All they removed was the stands except for about 1/8 of it.Then they drilled and tapped 8 new holes to bolt the stand down.I plugged the pushrod holes with aluminum rod.I started with 5/8 stock and turned it down to a .0015 press fit then welded it on the top and bottom.I redrilled the pushrod holes on a bridgeport.Total I have 3-4 hours in the pushrod holes between plugging and redrilling.
Now that's a completely different system than Rick had, like that one much better, as it does not interfere with the head bolts. Just get a set of heads with no pushrod holes, and that would be a good deal. That interface with the head bolt holes on the T&D's gave me the willies.. JW
Jim, I am not going to say anything other than I think we need to delete the BS between you and I and move forward with this thread. State FACTS... good or bad about these systems and move on!!! T/As parts are great and I thank Mike for doing what he does!!! His parts speak for themselves!!! Fish, I applogize for hijacking your thread. I will do my best to inform you and feel free to contact me if you have any questions. Thanks
Hey Guys, To add some additional information about these rocker arm systems I will add to the pictures that Kevin (10inchBuick) has already added. Some have said these are difficult to install because of the additional pieces involved. I dont know about other brands but the Jesels that are on my cylinder heads dont appear to be difficult. The main shaft mounting bar is bolted to the cylinder head with 4 bolts. The two outside bolts fasten the rocker arms to the main mounting bar while the center bolt goes through the main bar and into the cylinder head.
Here is a picture of the rocker arms seperately.... I really need to spend some $$$ on a good camera :grin: Kevin, It appears that your Jesels are a newer version than mine. The bodies of those rockers look to me more rounded off and lightened up even further in some areas.
Mine where bought in 2001 I had to pay extra for them to look like that.That is the ultra light option with tail profiling and then shot peened this all cost 400.00.The machine work cost 200.00 from jesel. It would have been nice to have the heads with out the pushrod holes.We acually moved the intake pushrod over .400 then .150 towards the intake face.But I already had the heads and couldn't afford to buy new ones.I would have started with stg4s but I think this turned out better this way because we had alittle more room to work with the port to shape it the way we wanted it
