Hello, I am a Buick newbie and just joined the forum today. I've been looking for a '68-'71 GS or Skylark convertible for a while and thus the user name "TorqueEnvy". Also, I have a newbie question. Is there any way to tell what effect changing the exterior color will have on the value of the car? Assume it's a $15-$20K car and the new color is a factor color. thanks.... Tom
I've been a Buick newbie since '89.... Color could have a huge consequence If it's an unpopular color, the car may technically have lots of value, but may not sell for so long the seller lowers the price. If it's a model specific color, it could be disastrous- example- 1970 GSX came in two colors in production- yellow and white. if everything else on the car was 100% correct, and that '70 GSX was red, either you'd have to prove without a doubt it was the only red '70 GSX, or you would have to at LEAST deduct the cost of correcting the improper color from the selling price. Could be thousands and thosusands of dollars on a collector car like that. I'd guess 5k minimum on a car that was collectible but not incredibly rare, and double that in the case of our red '70 GSX. That's just a guess. For less collectible cars, the 'real' value of the car would be reduced by the cost to correct the wrong color, plus an additional arbitrary 10% for the process for the sake of argument. You have a car like this in mind for purchase?o No: We're pretty friendly here- we'd much rather call you by name than an internet handle. You should sign your posts so we can get to know you better. On my car, the color change may work for me. It was originally a color called Bamboo cream. A yellowy, creamy color that frankly, I loathe. It was red when i bought it, but a factory color. Now it's a factory light blue metallic and everyone seems to like it. I'm not worried about the car's value, but I don't think that this color change hurt the value terribly, and would even help sell the car if I chose to sell it, because the car is much more attractive a vehicle in this color. Let's say it's a correct restoration on a car like mine: 1970 Skylark Custom convertible. It's a car that may win a regional show it's so nice and right and pretty and clean, and may place highly with an outside chance of winning a national, let's assume. The maximum value is 15K. It should be brown, but I paint it black instead. OK, to win the show, it must be correct. that means the body color code must correspond to the body tag code- and it doesn't. this is easy to check on these cars and the judges WILL spot it if they know anything. You'll lose points in the show. in a tight competition, you'll lose. In national competetion, you're handicapped. So now, that car, if "perfect", has a value of 15K (for argument's sake). that means it wins the shows, it is an example of factory correctness and also could be used to learn how to correctly restore similar cars...but it's no longer correct now, is it? So, take the price to completely dissassemble th car to protect the other restoration work from stripping agents, strip it, prep it, mask it, spray it the correct color, reassemble it so it's back to 100% correct...was it woth restoring the car twice, essentially? How much would that process cost? more than 5K in this instance...so a person buying that car with an eye toward winning a show would not buy it for 15k. probaly more like 7K. But let's face it: the car I described does not exist. A car restored that well would be the correct color to begin with, much more likely than not, and if it wasn't, the owner knows this, and doesn't really care about winning the national show: it's for enjoyment or for just competeing in regional and local shows. And I have zero problem with that, the car should be enjoyed, bottom line. Whatever that may mean: enjoyment from correct restoration, from driving it, from competeing on a concours level, whatver enjoyment means to the owner. On a car that isn't a concours car or incredibly rare car, the value loss could be arguable to my mind: ok, on one hand, the car isn't as correct as it could be, but on the other, so what? You're free to buy another one and the owner knows that, so he'll just sell the car to somebody else, is all. if the car isn't good enough for you, you can find one that is, and he will just wait for another buyer rather than lose a few grand. Brad Conley is a heck of a nice guy and he is the one to ask about this. I doubt he would mind a PM on the subject, but he may just drop into the thread as it is.
I'm not Brad, but... No points are deducted in concours judging as long as the car is painted the correct model year color. The color doesn't necessarily have to be the exact color on the cowl (except in the 1970 GSX case Chris identified above). In other words, paint a 1970 Buick a 1970 Buick factory color and you'll be OK :TU:
Thanks for the info, Chris, Marco. I don't really have a specific car in mind, but while surfing the web I came across this one. It looks like a nice GS400 for the money, but I'd probably change the color (sorry to all you white car lovers) http://www.cars-on-line.com/68buick9777.html Marco, a link to your site comes up every time I "google" looking for a gs convert. I feel like I know it. Nice ride... Tom
Re: I'm not Brad, but... Hmmm That is good news and I'm surprised, but it's good news all the same!:TU: you make me feel guilty about leaving you out, Marco:laugh:
Marco's correct... Hey guys, Marco's correct on that one. We would not deduct points, nor would any judge at the BCA or GSCA level (I've judged in both). Duane is the "Head Honco" when it comes to judging and I've worked many times with him. We decided to keep the rules the same between the 3 different clubs (BPG, BCA and GSCA) so a person would not have to change their car to compete at all 3 events. On a personal note, I prefer a car to be 100% correct. If I were to be interested in purchasing a car that was for sale and the only thing wrong was the color, I would deduct the cost of restoring the car to it's original configuration from the value. But hey, it's your car. Do with it what you wish. The most important thing is to enjoy the car!
I hadn't thought at ALL about how different clubs or shows may have different rules for judging! So basically this is why a red convertible with a color swap can sometimes beat a more correct tan four door at a show? Not that the judges don't know about the issue, but that certain things are permissible or understood to be of less importance than say, the correct pattern interior? Can I assume that the same could hold true with interior color or vinyl top color? One last question:laugh: Is it known to happen that the judging could come down to which car is the correct color? Or is that 'photo finish' too rare to even worry about? Judging turns out to be more complex than I thought. The bizarre thing is that I don't own a car that this info could help me with- it's not gonna win any shows. Just curious as to how I had such a wrong impression of what's going on with the judging process. I guess I'm just taking the concept to an extreme.
No, the more "correct" car should prevail every time. If a tan 4dr Special is more correct, then it should score more points and win the competition. Our judges are just "blind" to the data tag information as to color or trim. They are not blind as to correct finish on parts or workmanship. Every car we judge starts with 400 points. Point(s) are deducted for incorrect parts/finishes and workmanship. We do not "add up" the points until after all cars are judged. We do not know who the "winner" is until we break out the calculators. Also, there is no "winner" as we use the BCA's Gold-Silver-Bronze point system, so if the tan 4dr scores 399 points and the (incorrect) red convertible scores 386, they both leave with a gold award (gold awards are given for a score 385 and above). If there were a "special" award to be given (best of show, etc), the tan 4dr would prevail.
Guys, The judging system that Brad described in the above post is the one we use for the GSCA Concours class and at the BCA events. It is also the way I hope to see the BPG classes judged. The only time that exterior color becomes an issue is, for example, if you try to paint a 70 GSX Red. It might be a factory color for 70, but would not be correct for that "Model." The same rules go for interior colors, and engine sizes. Another thing to remember is this; A car doesn't need to be worth $40,000 to win a Gold in Concours. Phil Dayen has a Green 69 GS 350 coupe and he did a beautiful job restoring it. When he brings it to Concours he wins a gold, the car is that correct. "Something else to think about." There is another judging system used for all other classes at the GSCA Nationals. They use a 100 point system and have 1st, 2nd, and 3rd only. If there are 4 cars in a class then the car with the lowest # of points doesn't get anything. This class judges the quality of the cars against each other. If those same cars were in our "Concours" class and all had 385 or more points, then all would win a Gold. We judge the cars against a standard. If you need more info on this 100 point judging system you should talk to Larry Miller. He is "The Man" regarding this. Duane
Beware !!! Tom - that car you linked to isn't correct !! In 1968 / 1969 The only GS Convertables available was a Big Block (400) I call B.S. on this Car !!!!
'68 GS Connie Tom, Alan brought up the correctness of the '68 convertible, and you said you were planning to paint it. I thought it was high priced anyway. You might consider looking for an "unrestored" car that is more nearly correct, then you can spend your money doing the things you want with it rather than redoing expensive stuff (like paint). Maybe start with something that costs 1/3-1/2 what they are asking for the white '68, have it fixed up, you could end up with a nicer car for the same $18 to $20k it would take to buy and paint that white car whatever color you wanted it. I think the '68-'69 cars are a good starting point, the values seem to be coming up a little but they are substantially less than the '70-'72 cars.
Alan, What makes you think it is not a correct car? For others reading this thread, here's the description from the link... "Buick Gran Sport. This Grecian White beauty is ready for the show! It features a new black convertible top, freshly repainted, fully restored interior, new Flowmaster 3 chamber exhaust, rebuilt engine and automatic 350 turbo transmission and new tires. This classic will bring many more years of enjoyment! Price - $13,500." "Automatic 350 turbo transmission" is just the description of the trannie right? I assumed this could still be consistent with having a 400 ci engine. Is there something else in the description or pics that lead you to belive it's incorrect? thanks... I appreciate your comments so that I don't mis-step. John, I agree with your logic and it matches the "relationship" I'd like to have with this yet-to-be-located car. Namely, I'd like something that is drivable today, but does not have to look nice. And I'd like to slowly improve it over a few years as cash and time allow. Now I can tighten up my "goal" a bit... Wanted: '68-69 GS400 convert. Does not need to be a real looker but should be drivable with good engine and frame. Looking to spend $5K-$10K. Does that sound achievable? thanks...
Hi Tom - Prior to 1971, all GS convertibles were big blocks. A '68 GS convertible should have a 400 CI motor and a TH400 transmission, not a TH350.
For 10K you should be able to get yourself a VERY respectable 68/69 Convert. that would be a good platform to build on. In fact, for that kind of $$$ it shoudln't have any major flaws such as bad floor pans, rusted quarters, blown motor etc. but smaller things like needing a new top, interior needs "A Fixxin" dual snorkel air cleaner missing, chrome/bright work not the best....etc.etc. You'll get more 68/69 for the $$$ over a 70-72, but spend the same on parts/resto'ing whatever needs attention, so return on investment, by todays standards, won't be the same .....But then again neither is the Styling or class:TU: :laugh: :grin:
colour counts having experience the barrett-jackson auction , i can inform u that two cars - same make, model , engine, etc. - that a red car will sell more quickly & for more money , as long as red was a correct colour for that car .
