:beer o No: I would like to know what the best choice would be for headers for my 69 GS w/a 455 transplant since my GS came with a 350 and that year had the optional 400 as the biggest choice..Thanks! Scott
As far as I know, the 400-430-455 are in the same family, so to speak, so it's not like the 455 is physically larger- it's just bored out more. In any case, your frame is shared, '68 to '72, don't forget. I use TA headers, they work well, no complaints. I did have to make one small ding to clear the steering coulmn shaft. They also make shorty headers. TA Performance would be the ones to call for any concern over fit.
http://www.headersbyed.com You should get a set made for your application. They're not cheap so you may have to design your own and build them using Ed's guidlines (if you can weld). Everything else is a compromise.
$$$$$ Did I mention I am not made of money??? :spank: I will have to go prefab to curb my spending and I don't think Eds is my only option. I believe there's an application out there that'll fit my 69 with the 455. I'll just have to be patient.:beer thanks, Scott
No reason to have to fab headers for your application. You have the most popular combination out there 68-72 A-body (skylark/GS) with a big block (400-430-455). TA direct fit full length competition headers start at $300. Shortys start at $379. Dave
Headers Dave, Thanks alot for confirming what one or more have told me. I just needed a few extra opinions to solidify my choice before I made the call. Now I know what to order! Thanks,:beer Scott
No need to bang me on the head Scott. I just figured that you where after a performance improvement. There is a big difference between headers that are designed correctly and ones that feature unequal length tubes of the wrong length and tube size with collectors which are too large or too short...and properly designed units which could offer substantial improvements to power across on the bottom, the middle and the top end. I understand that premade headers by Ed Henneman are expensive which is why I suggest his info pack and design service. That will all come in at under $100 and then you go out and buy the tubing and weld up your own. It's not easy but it's definitely cheaper than buying a set that was designed with the only parameters being to fit your car and engine combo with no consideration for your driving or tuning requirements. Then again, if your only after a better quality sound (than stock manifolds) or your only concern is to get anything that will fit your body and engine bay then your options have already been listed. I was just trying to help you make an informed decision and my intention is not to diss any products that are made by our favorite and usual vendors (or you). All I know is that headers are not all the same and that choosing the correct design comes down to much more than just deciding which ones will fit your engine bay.
Head bangin' I wasn't trying to come accross rude or blunt or anything like that. I realize that a custom set would benefit me more in some areas, but my resources are limited. I'd like custom since I hear that no matter what you pick prefab, most of the time you still have to bang a pipe here and there to make it fit... I will still look into Eds, but I figure that avenue may be out of my price range! Does someone out there have a pair of TA Perf Headers for my application for sale....hahaha Thanks all... Scott
Ok Scott. It just looked like that picture of someone banging someone else on the head being just after the reply to my suggestion was aimed at me. I'm over it. In any case the reason I pointed you to Ed was that he has some real insight into how to design headers that really work and the fact that you can give him the details of your car (and he asks dozens of questions in his questionaire) seems to be directly aimed at those with a budget like most of us. We get the info and scratch build them to suit our particular application therby saving money and getting the best product in the end. The problem of course is getting access to a welder and knowing how to use it. Once you can get over that hurdle it seems the best way to get the best headers in the cheapest possible way. Once I read the dozens of information sheets that he sends as part of his info pack and listening to his cassette "seminar" on header design I learned a hell of a lot about header design and I've been reading every performance and Hot Rod magazine I could get my hands on for the last 25 years. I also felt it was my duty as a participating member of this group to pass on any info that would help make a decision both in terms of saving money and obtaining the best 'bang' for your efforts and dollars.
Very Confused I mean no disrespect here. But fabricating a set of headers is a very difficult task, especially in a street car. And there is no way it can be done for less than $300. The amount of labor alone, even if you only factor your worth at $10 an hour would cost that much, plus the pipe kit, flange kit, materials and cost of equipment. You will also drive yourself crazy trying to achieve equall length on all tubes. As well as being physically and mentally taxed by the whole process. All this to gain maybe 5 to 10 hp over a production set, or also take the chance of making less power. The whole reason that a set of Headers never existed for the Nailhead Rivieras and fullsize cars is no one wanted to deal with that nightmare. Even the company now that makes them for us (TA) is extremely reluctant to produce them and pushes it off as much as possible. If the engine transplant in the Skylark was done correctly TA's headers and most others will go in fine with little or no modifications necessary and you will instantly feel the difference on the street and at the track. Dave
You're right Dave, no direspect taken. It will be difficult but I have 10 years experience as a welder, I have access to a mig machine and 5 weeks holidays coming up. I also have a buddy who has built two sets for himself before both where in BBC A body cars. I never factor my labour in when I'm working for myself and with advice and design parameters from Ed I'm sure it will be a success. I'll take pics and before and after Dyno's too. But it's not for the fain hearted that's for sure. But for the cost of 3 or 4 magazines I received much advice (dozens of pages) from Ed and an audio 'seminar' which explains many things that I did not know and was very surprised to find out. No longer do I think that 'headers are headers' or that 'anything is better than stock manifolds'. Besides, my Electra is right hand drive so I really have no option because I doubt that there is a set of headers designed for a right hand drive Nailhead powered Electra anywhere in the world anyway.
welp... I know Ed (Headers by Ed) personally, have spent many hours in his shop talking headers. I bought all the parts to build the headers for the tube car in the shop now, and we built them from scratch. I have 64 hours into their construction. According to Ed, they are the correct primary dia and length with the correct collector size (2 1/8 and 3 3/4 ) They are all equal length within 1/2 inch, and we worked very hard to get them that way. I also have a another set of fabbed STG 2 headers, that have almost a foot of tube length error. The "wrong" size.. (2 1/4 primarys with 4" collectors) I also own a set of ED's A body 455 headers. His work is incredible, but at the $1400 for a set for an A body with a 455, he is really not interested in making them. I have dyno tested all the above headers. Gains to be had are minimal, with either set of equal length headers. There is some power there, but not a ton. I had to build the set for the racecar, as nothing available would fit the chassis. If you can get a set of production headers for any car, then by all means.. buy them.. It is the most cost effective way to go. I have over $400 invested (before the ceramic coating) in the headers we built for the race car. The customer will pay $1200 for that set. And I was very impressed with the shorty header test we just did on that STG 1 Aluminum head motor.. not quite what full headers make, but dang close. Bill, If your going to build headers, you need to gas weld them. Mig is horrible looking in that application, and tig is difficult to do, on a round surface like that, while controlling your heat properly. Gas welding is much easier, and plenty strong for the application. Here is a pic of the headers we built for that race car.
Thanks Jim, we where actually discussing renting some gas bottles last night. My friend already has a full handpiece and regulator set (brand new) but doesn't have any bottles. At $1400 ($2700 Australian dollars before shipping) you can see why I will be tackling this task myself - no matter how difficult it is.
Sometimes, Jim, I look at a pic you post from your shop, and then I think to myself, "who am I kidding":laugh: I wish I could make something half as nice as the product you turn out.
headers Jim - are you saying that the gain with the headers was minimal over cast iron manifolds, or that there was minimal difference between the production headers and the custom ones? Could you post some numbers from the dyno comparison? - Bill
Bill, Neither set of the headers in question (the stg 2 stuff) were production headers... they were both tube car headers. Now, here is the deal.. on that 750 HP motor, the bigger dia 2 1/4 headers with the 4" collectors, worked out ok.. lost a couple of numbers on torque, over the 2 1/8 3 3/4 collector header. that's because the HP of that motor, puts it into the area where the big header is "just a little too big" and the smaller header is just about right. Now today, we had a level 3 464 on the dyno.. that 625 HP motor, with that same set of 2 1/4 dia 26" length primary, 4" collector headers, suffered in the torque department, over what a set of 2 1/8 dia headers, with much longer primaries, and smaller collectors would do. I have to pick up a set of smaller headers, for testing that type of motor.. so anyone with an old set of TA STG 2 headers around, let me know, I am in the market. Now, the iron manifold/header deal is a product of the flow capablity on the exhaust side of the of the new STG 1 Alum head. Simply put, the exhaust of the head flows so well, that is it much less sensative to what is bolted onto it.. Headers, either shorty or full length are still better, there is just not the difference their used to be... It used to be 30-40 HP, now it's more like 15-20. Now, the higher you get in HP in that motor, the more it wants headers.. so don't toss the idea of headers on your car out the window just yet.. It depends on how much HP you are building... before, if you wanted to build 425 HP, with iron heads, then either headers or Manfolds would work... Headers on that build would be 430 HP, and manfolds would be around 410-415... with the same specs for the cam.. Same thing still applies.. except we are talking 500 HP now, instead of 425. If you ever spoke with me on an iron motor buildup, you know how I stressed the new for headers with that motor, if you after any serious power. I am glad with this new head, we now have more options. JW
thanks Chris.. It's not that hard, you just have to work at it. There is no magic here, just lots of hard work. And not much sleep.. :sleep: JW
