Soon I'm assembling my engine and have both to work with. I have a Poston Girdled Pan and the PAE Halo Girdle and Steff's Pan. The engine should make in excess of 600hp using TA Sportsman rods and SRP pistons and stg2 alum. heads etc.. I want NO PROBLEMS. With the aftermarket stuff for chevies and mopars and the factory blocks they have I know I'm an underdog with a weak block. My question is what is the better setup to strengthen the block? Thanks. Ray
Hi, I don't know which is better but I assume the halo won't fit in the Poston pan? I would think a halo inside the Poston pan would be the strongest if it would fit. But the steff's pan probably would have better oil control. Just my 2 cents. Tom
No problems?? If I were to do it again: Sell the Halo, and Poston Pan and put a true machined girdle on it. Used Buick race stuff sells quick and brings in a good buck. Also. Sell the Sportsman Rods and buy a lightweight rod (aluminum). Internally balance the whole assembly. If that means selling externally balanced items such as the balancer.. Do it. Do the oiling mods as well be particular with the bearing clearances. Don't try to "make do" with what you have. --Not worth it. -John
This is probably the best post I've ever read since the inception of this message board........The last line speaks volumes as to the cause of most people "engine woes"........ :TU:
600 Hp Ray if i were you i would just put that motor together you can make a safe 600 hp with no girdle or halo ive run stock rod motors for years with out any trouble. the junk parts motor in my car now has all junk in it, its not balanced and its run 6.40 @ 105 in the 1/8 (track was to cold to run the 1/4) if you have a good shop do the machine work (ones that know how to read a mic.) you will be able to get a ton of runs out of that motor.the only reason im putting in my 2 cents is because all you hear lately is how these motors dont stay together it a bunch of bull s--- because no one on this site put more runs on a buick motor than i have ( my motor only came apart because of my own stupidity) im not talking 12 second runs im talking 9 second runs i have shoe boxes full of slips to prove it. if anyone keeps blowing there motors up you can bring them to the shop that does my work and i know they will last then.so ray if i were you id put the stefs pan on and run the halo cuz you already have it just MAKE SURE THE SHOP YOU GO TO CHECKS ALL THE CLEARENCES NOT JUST ONE ROD AND ONE MAIN.thats enough for now. thanks JOHN
John -- You are one of the exceptions. IMHO you do not represent the norm. Ray, if you do as Massoud recommends then don't run it past 5800 RPM. Also check your compression. You don't need 13:1. Stay under 12:1. Call John Zerucha. He has an interesting cam theory that really won't cost you anything if you haven't selected your cam yet. Set your goals up front. Do you want to run a number, or do you want to go rounds? How often will you run a year? 1/8 mile passes are also much easier on your combo. If it's too cold to run the 1/4, it's too cold to run the 1/8... Check my posts. Everything I've done is out in the open on this board and I've killed three 600 HP combos. I'm not trying to scare you off. Maybe I got dealt some bad luck. 605HP put me in the 10.50's at 3700lbs which is pretty respectable. Also, if you do run what you have... assuming you have a Poston "Girdled Pan", I'd run that rather than the Halo and Steff's. That Pan contained two "big end" rod failures of mine that happened at over 115MPH. Cheap insurance in my book. If you dig deap, there are others like Perry Carlini that ran the Poston pan in their 600ish HP combos and believe (as I do) that it helps stiffen the bottom end. Here is what you won't find here: A one stop shop for the complete combos of car's like Massoud's. There is lotsa good advice (such as Massoud's) but if you dig deep enough it will contradict other good advice. You will also not find much in regards to clear and consice builders info from the "good" Buick shops on this board. Call each one on your own and see. This forum is just one small tool in the toolbox to reference. Call Massoud's (give us the name and number John), then call AM&P, Weise, Burek, Earick, Chilenski, TA, Wildcat (GSCA), and Finishline. Call some local shops to you. Make sure you visit them as well and check out their operation. While you are at it get the Dove guide to Buick Performance Engines. Once you sort through all the info and advice you will ultimatley need to go with your gut. Look here as well: http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=81411&highlight=poll Good luck to you.
Stock stuff... Although I agree with John H and Gary, John M makes a good point. As I have too beat the crap out of a stock short block with Nitrous. All I did was install ARP rod bolts and bore it .030. The stock crank was worn just right for a hot street strip setup so it was untouched as was the balance. It never came apart or gave me problems, I just out-grew it. Ran 6.80 flat at 102, 1/8 mi. in a 3550 lb GS and ran 11.40's at 117 N/A thru the 1/4. So a lot of it boils down to having the right machine work and attention to details on assembly. Know your limits too, rpm kills. I'm not saying go the cheep route but I am just adding to the guys that have had good luck with stock stuff. Sometimes you only hear off the stuff that comes apart and never what stay together. The guys with stuff that stays together never have any question since they aren't having any problems. :TU: I would say add the halo and use the Steffs pan. Buicks have enough oiling issues not to add another one by using the Poston girdle Pan. It can be made to work but not without adding lines, oil traps, and scrapers. I am a big fan of aluminum rods, I would push for those over adding a girdle.
You guys know far more about this stuff than i will ever know but i can tell u what my motor builder told me, he looked at the poston pan and said waste of money, if you want a girdle get one you wont be sorry, also said for a street motor aluminum rods are not the way to go. this info is on the motor in my signature.
what about that halo thing PAE sells, says no machining just need diff pan..like stefs, still keeping the 600-650hp goal..
OK. Because I already have it I think I'll go with the Steff's pan (but add a trap door & widage tray) and I'll add set screws in the middle of the halo's webbing to make sure the caps don't flex like I seen an a previous thread and have spacers made so the halo sits flush with all the caps. (The caps are different heights). I understand if I went with the lightweight pistons and rods this would not be nessesary. I have 3 cams for these heads. A solid 250/254, & 2 hyd. 244/242, and a 250/256. The hyd. 250/256 I'll try first. This car will be used on the street allot but also at the track say 30-50 passes a year. The machinist is really good plus 2 of my freinds are machinists so they will tripple check the work. I don't think I'll have issues there. I'll have the block align honed with the halo installed and bored with a torque plate. What kind of clearances should I shoot for the main and rod bearings? I have an indexed crank already .010 on both that came with race bearings? From previous threads these bearings will chew up the crank. Is this true? Should I go with the Clevitte 77 bearings? I have the TA cover also. And a new standard oil pump. Booster plate and 5/8's pickup tube and the block opened up to 5/8's. What other oiling mods are needed at this power level? I'ts a 70 block. I realize I have many questions but I already puked a block and don't want to do it again. Thanks Ray
Guys all the advise is great! I have been down the John Massoud route and now I'm more into the pushing the limits stuff. But I have four very important questions. These questions will dictate what route you will take. 1. How fast do you want to go? Be realistic! 2. Is your Buick a street car mainly with occassional track time? Or mainly for track and very little street time. 3. Your budget. Again be realistic. 4. Combination. Think it all out. Weight of car, suspension has to be upgraded with big HP engines, your trans, rear end etc. This also adds up and should be considered. I have shot the bull with John many times in the past with stories of pounding the daylights out of my Buick when it was a street car and that was with juice too. Had nothing exotic. A good solid cam, a good set of ported steel stage 1 heads car weight was under 3500 pounds and I was running with juice 10.80's and w/o 11.20's. I guess some may say I was lucky as I only lost one engine when my car was on the street. I have to agree with John that a street strip car using basics is not a problem getting into the 11's with nothing exotic. But again I was under 6,000 rpm's. So that is very important as it was stated in this thread. Keep the revs down it's by far not a Chevy. If you mainly want a track car then I would hope you have a trailer. Yes guys I know many of us drive to the track. But it's much easier to have parts and tools and eliminate those "caught in traffic" days. Not to mention any long distance race events. If you want to go faster and rev higher then in order to make it last you will be paying some bucks. Yeah guys I know it can be done on a budget but for how long and one engine explosion and all of that is now junk! Been there done that and I rather pay more now not to cut corners, as I stepped over the street strip line eliminating the street legal part. So before you move further on I would be truthful with yourself and answer those questions. Then you have a basic plan and can move forward from there. There are plenty of great guys on this board that are more than willing enough to help out. Best of luck!!!
1. How fast do you want to go? Be realistic! 2. Is your Buick a street car mainly with occassional track time? Or mainly for track and very little street time. 3. Your budget. Again be realistic. 4. Combination. Think it all out. Weight of car, suspension has to be upgraded with big HP engines, your trans, rear end etc. This also adds up and should be considered. 1. Into the tens realistically. 2. Street car (Mostly doing 50 mph). Track at least every 2nd weekend. 3. What ever it takes. 4. I have front drag springs, boxed lowers, 12 bolt chev. with milodon caps. TA cover. 3.73 Strange gears. PAE Switch Pitch trans. with a normal front pump and an ATI 3500 treemaster. Ordering adj. uppers as soon as I can find out which are the best to get. I'm looking into gettin a cage put in while the int. out. Thanks Ray
IN THE 10ssss Ray i dont know how heavy your car is but we were running a 71 stage 1 gs (buickwises car ) 3850 # with stock rods aries pistons 13.1 (that i bought from T/A in 1988) iron heads t/a 308s shifting it at 6200 and we were running 10.80 at 124 so i dont think you will have any trouble running 10sss. and John H i never run 1/8 mile but i got my car running for the last test n tune at new england dragway epping nh. it snowed a little the night before and it was so cold they could not get the shut down to come around so they let us run the 1/8. if youve ever been in newhampshire in late october you would know why they couldnt get it to come around. all i have to say is you dont have to have state of art parts to make these things live at 600 hp just do your home work. ray in my motors i run 3 th clearence on the mains and 2.7 tenth on the rods and if i were you i wouldnt run those hard race bearings there not to forgiving on the crank.just P bearings are fine for me i have all me bearings coated.hope this helps. (TORQUENSOVER) later JOHN
John I figured those bearings would chew the crank up. There was a little discussion about those recently. I'll order some standard .010 bearings and see what the clearances are. I'll get those clearances spot on even if I have to get the crank reground. What weight oil should I use? Do I need any oil mods. on the block other than for the 5/8s pickup tube? Is a standard oil pump OK with the TA cover and booster plate? I'm sending the block out this week for machining. The time is coming close for assembly. Thanks Ray
stock stuff ?? I'm with John Massoud on this. Stock stuff will take you pretty far providing the machine work is spot on. Balance is critical as are all clearances. I've spun 7000 thru the traps many times with stock rods/Ross pistons and 13:1 compression, no girdle etc. Nothing exotic on the oiling system either. Total combination is everything. All of your goals can be reached with the stock oil pan. I still run a stock oil pan, no girdle.............
3. What ever it takes. Well, if you don't have a budget then why take any chances. Go for the full girdle with good al. rods and good pistons. Sell the sportsman rods and the SRP pistons. Go with a JE, Wiseco or a CP. The SRP's I believe are a little on the heavy side usually. Car should run deep in the tens on pump gas, no problem.
Gary #1) Your car is way bad ass, looking and running! :laugh: #2) You don't have oil starvation problems with a stock pan?
Current best is 9.45@141+....aluminum rods/alum Stage 2 heads at 3600lbs. Stock rod engine went 9.95@132 with alum Stage 2 heads at 3630lbs. I do believe with a converter adjustment and a better track it would have went quicker. Both the 9.45 and 9.95 were run without tailpipes and the car had a glass Stage 2 hood. The same stock rod engine with tailpipes and stock GS hood went 10.07@131 in good air on a great track at 3820lbs. The stock rod deal with iron heads, tailpipes, stock GS hood, at 3817lbs went 10.80s@123. Stock rod motor is 13.4 comp Alum rod motor is 14:1 Both run with stock deepened oil pan and no girdle. All of these passes were on Hoosier 9" slicks. Not as of yet Reynold.
Dominic I already have the rotating ass. balanced. The piston/rod combo has a 258 gram lighter bobweight than stock. The srp pistons are either 9 grams heavier & 12 grams lighter than the Wicecos available. The "whatever it takes" answer was ment for making the car hook. Power won't mean a thing if it dosen't. I just want a reliable car to drop the hammer once in a while and kick some *** at the track. Many guys say it'll never run tens and I want to prove them wrong. With some tuning I think I can get there and have it streetable too. Ray
