thanks steve, anyone else have an idea of horsepower i might get out of my engine? it is still in machine shop so i dont know compression ratio (should be 8.5-9:1), here is what i do know: 72 sbb bored 30 over 71 heads (not ported or polished) ta 212 cam, grooved cam bearings stock 4bbl intake stock exhaust manifolds 2 1/2" true dual exhaust with flowmasters rebuilt q jet stock hei distributor TH350 transmission any feedback is appriciated, i am excited and just anxiously awaiting my transpant into my on-its-last-leg-daily-driver-regal! -Adrian
Depending on tuning and compression figure 225-250 HP.should have block shaved while its apart.about. 030 off top and get a hi stall convertor.and a set of 3 series gears from a s10 or jimmy/blazer/astrovan add an Xpipe in exhaust around 2 1/4 size
Andy, i am using the master rebuild kit from northern auto, minus several parts i got thru TA. the pistons came from NA and are according to their website, Federal Mogul stock style Pistons. -Adrian
only ones i seen on the site was standard 8 to 1 pistons. you should look at the 1734 3.0 v6 piston at summitracing.
so car should be ready this week. from machine shop i need to get it to muffler shop to install exhaust, can i drive with manifolds only to muffler shop across town? should machine shop try and temporarily tie exhaust into existing single pipe just to get me to muffler shop? im worried about damaging new engine. also i am reading alot about rear ends and how my car is all factory and might break something if i dont get rear end updated soon, any input on this would be greatly appriciated! thanks guys! -Adrian
This was actually me who wrote that, and it's really not very accurate since he never responded as to how much his car weighs. I have since heard (not positive) that he has an Apollo, which would weigh less meaning his power isn't quite that high. Probably closer to 320-330 HP and 410-420 ft. lbs., and he's done a lot of 'massaging'. You can gain a lot from tweaks and massages on your engine (even in bone stock form), often times more than just simply adding parts. TA 212-350 cam in a stock '71 8.5-9:1 engine with no head work and no exhaust manifold cleanup (anything over 2" duals will add no benefit in this scenario) should net around 270-280 HP and 350-360 ft. lbs. at the flywheel. You'll be able to use regular gasoline. Bump compression to use premium gas (another 1-1.5:1 points) and you can add another 15-20 HP and TQ to those numbers. You can add another 15-20 to those numbers with some head and exhaust manifold cleanup as well. Remember the TA 212-350 cam responds very well to engine mods, so the more you put in, the more you'll get out. Gary
You should call shop and get a measurement of piston depth at tdc. Then you can figure actual compression ratio. I would not have used pistons from northern as the math with sealed power pistons come to be about .090 in hole and will net about 7.7 to 1 compression. I would have gotten the hi compression pistons myself. The spec is .025 taller comp height with 10 cc dish as opposed to the 28 cc dish in the standard sealed power piston. If they haven't put pistons in yet get the specs on them an change them.
Give us a bit more info. You plan on using this as your daily driver, and you want a bit of a lope. The TA 212-350 cam should do the trick. You may need to tweak it a bit using your current combination though. Are you using your standard rear end? If so, it'll be the 7.5" GM 10 bolt, which may hold up ok for a low comp engine without too many mods as long as you don't romp it too aggressively. Ratio is probably 2.14-2.41 if your car came with the Buick v6. The rear end can hold up to some moderate punishment if you reinforce it and don't use slicks or a manual trans/high stall. (I have a 'recipe' for this, if you're interested) If you just want the engine/cam for the sound and putting around to and fro, it'll be fine. TA's cams are ground straight up, so it gives versatility when installing the cam. You could install the cam up to 8* advance to help it better match your low compression, though you'll need a degreeing wheel. You can try to 'trust' your stock timing gear/chain and just line up the dots for a 0* install, but you're taking a gamble on where the cam will be sitting. If it's actually 110/110 I/E (110* intake centerline install), you'll be sitting at 70* IVC @.006. Getting a degreeing wheel and setting ICL to 102* (8*A) gives you 62* @.006 for a better match with lower compression, though it depends on the grade of fuel you want to use. Even fully advanced to 8*, the exhaust opening still sits at 80.5* @.006 so it doesn't cut too heavily into the power stroke, so no worries there. Bear in mind TA recommends 4* advance (66* IVC, 76.5* EVO @.006). Give us more info on how you want your car to behave, what grade of fuel you'd rather use, etc. and we can better help you match your parts up. If not me, someone here will. Best wishes, Gary
The 7.5 will hold up to 300 HP or more if done right. When I had my 350 in my regal I broke spider gears . Posi carrier from a trans am and 14.4 was easy to run. Stock timing chain and low compression made it a dog . The 118 cam would have easily made 350 HP in the tight combo. Figure I was around 240 HP.
I know there's a lot of ups and downs and confusion about the power figures on these 350's, since there were so many different numbers; add on top of that the advertised numbers were sexed up for marketing purposes, and it's anyone's guess. Based on some patterns I've seen and numbers crunched, averages taken and all things considered, A stock Buick 355 (stock everything, including cam) will make 399 ft. lbs. and 291 HP with matched compression for premium pump gas, triple iron setup (stock intake and exhaust manifolds), stock valves, etc. but with some head and exhaust manifold cleanup. This means an average of 10.25:1 SCR for 7.75:1 DCR with a 71* IVC @.006, polished combustion chamber, cleaned up runners/bowls, polished exhaust on heads and manifolds. This is STILL a 'best guess,' but I'm pretty sure it'll be close. Twiddle around with other mild cams and you gain a little, but not enough to bother, especially considering in order to gain anything, you have to tighten the cam up a bit to make it more intense and concentrate the power more, which wears it out faster. Best upgrade from stock cam is the TA 212-350, which shifts the power about 500-700 RPM higher in the band, causing a 5-10 ft. lb. loss in peak TQ, with a pretty hard hit on low end (2000 RPM) TQ, though it picks it all back up from 4500-5500 gaining about 15-20 HP over stock cam. So overall it's an upgrade in power, even in an otherwise stock engine. Downsides are less gas mileage and camshaft longevity. What I do is take the numbers and average them between the .050 numbers and .006 numbers, and average the exhaust manifolds /w/ mufflers vs small tube primaries /w/ mufflers. Between those 4 sets of numbers comes a better view of the power patterns and numbers, giving it a modest figure instead of the embellished open large tube header setup that can mislead. Odds are these numbers are minimal, and are probably 10-15 more on both ends, but I'm trying to err on the conservative side. They can also get shifted around based on parts used, actual compression, tune, and a myriad of other variables that could alter the outcome. Getting 300 HP and 400 ft. lbs. would be pretty easy by just simply opening the exhaust manifolds up a bit more, to maybe 2.25" and using 2.25-2.5" exhaust. Put a set of small tube headers on and the TA 212-350 cam and you can break past 325 HP no sweat. Buick claimed 315 HP and 410 ft. lbs. for their 'hi-compression' 1970 350 with '10.25:1' comp...Probably didn't have that, though it very well may have come pretty close if the compression was actually matched up properly from the factory. Jim Weise built a 350 using ported Stage1 heads, the TA 212-350 cam, TA intake without spacer, 750 Qjet and large tube headers. Compression was 9.4:1 and could have stood to been about half a point higher, and still made 349 HP and 399 ft. lbs. I have no doubts there was probably 10-15 numbers on the table, at least. About the 7.5" GM 10 bolt: there are a few key items to use that will make it 'bulletproof' (or as bulletproof as it could get). 1) 28 spline axles--these are the same size as the 8.5" 10 bolt rears. Summit sells a pair made from better steel than factory (about 30% stronger), making these axles 30% better than stock 8.5" axles. So that solves the axle problem. 2) Steel '3-series' carrier (as opposed to the factory ductile iron), which is MUCH stronger (not sure exactly just HOW much, but lots) than the factory iron counterpart. Lowest numerical gear you can use with this is 3.23:1. I believe this is actually the 7.625" carrier, used in the SS Monte Carlos, in terms of size. Being steel it's far superior to the factory unit. 3) Ring and pinion: using a 3.42 or 3.23 makes the unit less prone to 'crawling' up the ring gear, which results in skipping over teeth and breaking something, which leads me to: 4) TA's rear end girdle. I've read this unit (when properly installed and set up) DOUBLES the rigidity of the housing that all this sits in, aiding in ring and pinion stability as well as bearings and carrier twist. Some people say to weld up the axle tubes, but I think those 4 things above will all but guarantee your rear end will live behind a N/A Buick 350 street engine, up to (I'm guestimating) around 450 ft. lbs. (maybe more) providing you don't use slicks or sticky tires, a manual trans or high stall. Always remember this: sudden jolting is the #1 killer of rear ends, and if the tires can't give because they're sticky, and if the axles/carrier/ring&pinion are flexing too far, something's going to give. I read that despite all this, about 350 RWHP is about max for the 7.5" GM 10 bolt rear, or at least is the 'agreed upon safe limit'. It takes a fairly beefy engine to produce 350 Rear Wheel HP...(though I feel torque is the real issue here, not HP...but I never read anything describing a TQ limit, so just use good judgement here) If an engine produces 350 RWHP, it's safe to say it's producing at least 350 RWTQ. This equates to 438-467 flywheel torque. So figure at least 450 ft. lbs. flywheel it's good up to, which an N/A Buick 350 in stock-mild street form isn't likely to see. Hence, 'bulletproof'. Gary
thanks Gary, i am all ears and will take all of your info into consideration once my car is on the road and i decide i need some more HP.... you and everyone on here has been a great deal of assistance! -Adrian
yes i will be using stock buick v6 rear end and yes just a daily driver, no slicks but i do have 20X10 inchers back there. as far as parts, engine is done, painted and everything, just not installed yet. what can be done from this point as far as your performance recommendations? are they still be able to advance the cam? i do know that the shop did "take a little extra off heads and block" for better compression. thanks, -adrian
You should go in and talk with guys at shop. I'm going to guess you're at 8 to 1 compression. So you might make 200 HP. Without measurements its all a guess. One of the posts on here they shaved heads to a 43 cc chamber to get compression up. So talk with shop and decide what you want . Now would be best time to make changes before engine is in and broke in. Gary has posted math for this cam before and knows best setup.
With an estimate of .090 distance of piston in hole 56 cc head .043 gasket and 28 cc piston you get about 7.7 to 1 compression. if you had 70 type hi compression piston you would have estimated .070 piston in hole with 10 cc dish. .043 gasket comes up to be about 9.3 compression.
If everything's together and you don't want to mess with it, it won't be a performer so much as a 'listener.' It'll have a bit of a lope, use regular gas, and get you to and fro with some pick me up. It should have enough power to get out of its own way, but don't expect a lot. Assume 'no' on this. This will be a 'mismatched' camshaft with low comp, and low end will be pretty weaksauce...which is actually probably a good thing with the stock rear end. Maybe just put it all together and drive it and see if you're satisfied? If not, you may want to consider taking it back to the shop and have them shave the heads and/or advance your cam more? You're taking a gamble either way. If you take the heads off measure how far down the pistons sit, come back and tell us so we can calculate your compression and you can decide what you want to do from there. The TA 212-350 cam performs best with 9:1 comp or higher. At or below 8:1 and it may not do so good... With the steep stock rear (I'd say at least 2.41:1, possibly the 2.14...) it's going to take that engine a minute to wind up to the point where it'll have decent power. Most of your driving will be low RPM, where the cam is going to be at its weakest. All this is fine and dandy if you don't plan on racing it a lot and just want to show off your idle and maybe listen to the 4 barrel carb now and then. It's up to you. Gary
What I would do is pull rods and change pistons. Measure piston depth. Hopefully you are at .065 -.070. About 9.3 compression.recurve distibuter. Get 3 series gear from Firebird,camaro,S10 , jimmy ,blazer,astrovan. Posi from same or ebay has them often.2200 convertor in trans .TA performance has big 350 manifold pipes for 110. Tune well.my regal350 ran 14.4 in 1/4 mile . 91 mph. With more compression and 3000 stall it should have been low 13 .
In my opinion I would stick with just c clip eliminators a girdle and welding the tubes. 3 series 7.5 position carriers can be quite pricey, even more so when you go 28 spline I know from when I priced out building my 7.5 in my 86 regal. I was prepared to do a build just like Adrian. Headers, built 350 with 212 cam and i was torn between building the 7.5, finding an 8.5 or doing a Ford 8.8 conversion. The best bang for the buck is definitely the 8.8 swap. Built 8.8 rears are plentiful and cheap. There are conversion trailing arms out there already. A built 7.5 will cost more than 1000 and at that point going with an 8.5 will yield a rear that will withstand twice the power for not much more money. But if you keep the open carrier in the 7.5 or find a junkyard 2 series 26 spline position carrier you can make that work for much cheaper and if something happens you won't lose your wallet.
The 3 series 7.5 carriers are no more pricey than any of the others (around 400 bucks for Eaton's Torsen gear style carrier). If you skip any of the steps I mentioned earlier, you're setting the rear end up for failure. The #1 reason for failure in a 7.5 axle is the twisting and hence flexing of the carrier, which results in the pinion gear walking up the ring gear and stripping some teeth, and carrier bearing failure (along with breaking of the weak factory 26 spline axles). The factory iron carrier is much softer, and can permit the gears inside to become stripped or broken because of improper gear tooth placement due to flexing of the softer iron. We've been over this discussion once or twice before I believe, Jacob, and came to a similar conclusion. The 8.8 Ford axles are a (almost) direct bolt-in swap, but you have the added expense and hassle of setting the axle up with a control arm kit that's required. I see it as a '6 one way, half a dozen another' scenario, though the Ford axle is no doubt stronger. If I was putting a big block into a Regal, I'd go with the 8.8. Otherwise, the heavily reinforced GM 7.5 is more than adequate for a Buick 350. There's also the added benefit of less reciprocal weight to spin, and as we've talked about before, it'll rob the drivetrain of less power, putting more to the ground. You'll have about 800-900 bucks in it, less hassle, all new parts, and it'll be pretty much bulletproof as long as it's kept as a street car with normal tires, no manual trans or high stall. If you can find a good used 8.8 with all the parts you want already inside and it's cheaper and you don't mind the swap, then yeah go for that. Either way. It's just if you do decide to go with the 7.5, you'll have to beef it up. After that, it'll live just fine behind a Buick 350. There's going to be personal preference involved here, obviously, which is just fine. As long as either solution is strong enough to hold up, this is the ultimate goal. Gary
The Trans Am and Z28 rears hold up fairly well . Plenty of used stuff out there to build a inexpensive rear. But got to build an engine that has big power first. With the giant rims he is using and the added weight of them it will lug engine down at low speed with a 2.41 gear.it will be slow out of hole and take forever to shift out of first gear at wide open throttle.55 or 60 mph.
