scratch that last one, i got it... with a lot of effort... argh.... next problem... how would i go about getting the throttle cable disconnected from the carb? it's really weird, and for the life of me i cannot figure out how to do this... once this is off, it's pretty clear sailing just unbolt the intake from the block and i should be all set to pull it out... any tips tricks or any suggestions?
:TU: The 195* t-stat should not be really hurting anything. Thermostats are very misunderstood beasties. It's usually assumed that if the car overheats or 'runs hot' it's got to be because of the t-stat rating. Your 455 has a boil over temp of 247*F with the factory stock system. Here's a quick rundown on how the cooling system functions: the system is kept at greater than atmospheric pressure, by the radiator cap. The long and the short of this is that it raises the overheat temp, just how much depends on the system and what's it's designed to be rated for. Yours should be 247*. the thermostat keeps coolant from flowing back into the radiator until it opens. but here's the thing I find people overlook: if the coolant is not in the engine long enough (inside the water jacket, a system of passageways that circulate coolant around the cylinders), it cannot pull heat out of the engine effectively, because the water doesn't stay there long enough. that's why it's a mistake to run without a thermostat. Some folks are convinced that this is the proper route to take in a hot climate, and I always urge them to read up on their particular cooling system. the last part of your system should be an overflow tank, on the passenger fender. Contrary to popular beleif, this tank does NOT hold "extra" coolant, and it is not designed to simply hold coolant that might boil over. The overflow has an important function. During normal use, the coolant will expand. When this happens, it adds pressure to the system. Your radiator cap will open when this happens, and the pressure is released, and a small outlet underneath the cap, connected to a tube that runs to the overflow, allows the coolant, which is hotter than it should be (remember, the higher pressure adds to the boiling point of the coolant) and it goes to the overflow. here's the important bit- the overflow has a tube running from it's lowest point, to the outlet under the radiator cap. This is at the lowest point so that, when the radiator is done putting coolant into the overflow ("purging"), it will now draw anything but coolant back into the radiator, from the overflow tank. That rubber hose is at the lowest point so that no air may be drawn into the system. Air in the sytem will displace coolant, cause hotspots, and cannot be pumped by the water pump. So to make sure this never happens, the overflow tank holds a volume of coolant to begin with, so that when the radiator draws, it will be impossible to draw air into the radiator. there is a second hose, at the highest point of the overflow, so that the coolant cannot breach the seal of the lid when under pressure if there's too much coolant in the system, and it also allows any air bubbles that make it to the overflow to escape the system. All that's well and good, but a practical example: I use a 160* t-stat in my 455. I never see over 160*F around town, and up to about 50mph. On the highway, i see about 210*F tops. It is usual to see about 100*F higher coolant temperatures than the ambient temperature, ie: on an 80* day, you'd tend to see at least 180* for temperature. I think my 160* t-stat was a BIG mistake, for three reasons 1) I use synthetic oil. the oil needs to be at about 190* to get moisture out of it. I often but not always get to 190*F 2) In general, the hotter an internal combustion engine is, the more efficient it is. After talking to various people around here and in person, I and others have determined that 190*F is about the best temperature for that engine to be at. In general. 3) I see well over my t-stat temp on the highway. 50* hotter. I am almost positive that when I change to the 190* t-stat, my temp will not go quite as high as it is now. 210*F is fine, but I'd like to see it at 200* max, because that's closer to the 'optimum' temperature. My reasoning is: the coolant will stay in the engine longer, cooling it more efficiently. It's already opening the t-stat at 160*, my theory is that although the radiator is "keeping up" just fine, if I allow the engine to have the coolant in it a little longer to begin with, I won't have to worry about the radiator playing catch up constantly. I use a 4 row radiator as it is. So, no matter if I were to run a 195*, 190*, 180*, or 160* t-stat, the thermostat is already opening fully at 160*. So what could be the downside to having a t-stat that opens a bit later- the thing's already open fully on the highway with the lowest rated one! That's my feeling on it, anyway. I'm not a thermodynamicist. Sometimes I find that folks assume that their engine runs hot, without even knowing what temperature it runs at. I strongly reccomend a good quality, aftermarket mechanical coolant temperature gauge. They are cheap, I think my Sun unit was 30 bucks. I have an extra if you want it. I can't find the bulb and socket wiring that lights it up, but I do have the baggie of fittings for it. The lighting portion of it's a simple wheat type bulb and a socket with a wire, you'd get a replacement at any hardware store. You'd have to buy a bezel bracket to mount it- they don't typically come with one. The stock electrical gauge is small, and electrical temperature gauges are innaccurate anyway. The mechanical one is a glorified oral thermometer with a long probe and a fitting to go in the manifold. the hardest part of installing it is deciding where to put it. As long as you don't damage the "wire" (actually part of the probe) it will work, regardless of whether or not the car is running or even has a key in the ignition. If the car does overheat or runs hot, it's so much more likely to be a bad radiator cap or a clogged radiator or a collapsed lower radiator hose than the fault of the thermostat.
It should be a blocky looking thing that goes into the bracket? You squeeze it- but you don't have to do that at all. Just unbolt the bracket from the manifold, instead, and leave the cable mounted in the bracket.
Kyle Stop your complaining and get it done. I am on my 7th year of owning my 1972 GS, and I've been working on it for about 6 years. Since I bought it in the summer of '96, I have put on less than 200 miles. Haven't put on a mile since summer of '97. My friends rip on me all the time. One guy jokes that I might as well make it wheelchair accessible, so that I can get in once I've finished it and am an old guy. I know the frustration you're going through, believe me. I can see it in your typing. You are not alone! Many a times I have fantasized about crushing my car into a cube and then pissing on it. I learned practically everything I know about cars on my GS, and there are plenty of first time mistakes to warrant that! I have spilled much blood, sweat, and shed many a tears, asking myself, "why didn't I just buy something else?!" I even thought about trading it in for an early 90's mustang. That's a sign of desperation! It's almost done now, and I long for the moment when it FINALLY leaves my driveway. There's always a light at the end of the tunnel. You can do it.........ya just need patience. The great thing is that you got buick nuts like me and the others on this board to cheer you along the way! GO KYLE!:TU:
well, i'm not positive yet.. but i think i might have a possible idea as why this thing is leaking... hrm.. cracked manifold maybe? my dad certainly torqued the bolts on the intake to more than 25lbs... though i think 25lbs is a bit weak if you ask me but it's more than twice that... i literally had to get all 8 of my knuckles to bleed before i could get the bolts untightened... argh... man... also, since i can't remember a year ago as to what the bolts looked like when we pulled them out, but they are oiling, i mean one of them had oil dripping right off it when i pulled it out... is this fine or am i just panicing now that all i have to do is pull the intake off... i've left the carb on it because it's tuned fine and running great other than the "leak" somewhere... uhm... oh ya.. one more question, what's the best way to clean up some aluminum? the intake is a edelbrock performer and i hosed the engine down one day to kinda clean the crud off the inside of the fenders and what not and i got water in the grooves of the intake and it appears to be rust ... any clear way to clean this up and make it look possibly like new again?
By rust do you mean some yellowish residue, or little white dots? The typical iron oxide orangey rust should not be present- no iron in the manifold. Steel wool will scrub that off. Cleaners will typically get 'sucked into' the finish on that manifold. Even oil from your hands can make a stain....but if it's cracked, why are you cleaning it?
whoops, i just read your thermostat post.. thanks for the clarification. to me, the thing seemed like it was running hot, but i also have a 3 core radiator? i think... if you look into the cap when it's partially empty (i did this when i drained some the coolant so when i disconnected the main water hose from the intake it wouldn't go all over.. ) it has 3 different little holes all the way from the top to the bottom of the radiator... 3 columns rather ... i know my radiator seems to be the weak point in my system and i was hoping that the 160 would help cool the engine a little bit better... it gets to the point where when i get back from a fairly long trip of about 15 minutes, i open the hood and the radiator cover (you know the big black surface that has engine information on it, that sticker) is hot to the touch, like you cannot put your hand on it it's that hot... i do not have a temp guage, it's in my list of crap to buy... i make a wonderful $7.60/hr and have $320 worth of bills every month for my other car, so coming up with money is difficult at best sometimes... my hot light has only come on once... but ever since i've yet to see it... so as far as i know it isn't overheating, but to me it SEEMS like it's too hot and getting mighty close to overheating... thanks for the excellent bit of information and thank you for taking the time to write all that. all i got left to do is pull the intake off... and hope it's just the gasket...
i haven't figured out if it's cracked yet... it probably isn't, but i'm cautious because of how tight the bolts were... i haven't pulled it off, i need to grab some tape and start taping wires and such to the valve covers so i can clearly pull the intake off without struggling to get it around every wire and hose under the hood i decided to take a break as i was cursing and swearing and about to throw tools again heh... white dots and a little bit of yellow.. i think it might be iron from our water around here... it's well water, and it's only in that one area of the intake...
ok, intake is officially off the engine... i've snapped some pictures, if anyone would like more or whatever, let me know i'm gonna put the intake back on probably after i eat so.. by 7PM eastern time she should be hopefully back on the engine... no cracks.. just really dirty lol... i'm hoping it was the intake that was leaking... i cannot tell if it was or not.. i just hope i'm not doing this in vain... http://mywebpages.comcast.net/unlogikal/Intake/ the green is indeed antifreeze.. i'm hoping that an oil change will get rid of this nasty stuff... i plan to wipe the stuff i can see up but there's no telling how much really got in the engine, so no doubt an oil change is up next...
ok, i've cleaned up the lifter valley as antifreeze got into it when i pulled the intake off, had to get a turkey baster to get the majority of it out of the water valleys rags and such wouldn't work lol... every time i'd move the car a bit more would leak out of one of them. no cracks in the intake, which is great. my problem came from this one simple thing... when my dad put this edelbrock into on, he reused the old one because TA performance gave us the wrong gasket when they shipped the intake and gasket together, they gave us a 350 intake gasket with a 455 intake.. figures right? and no silicone was used to seal anything... which explains the leak in the intake if there was one.. i have yet to even put the intake back in.. i gotta get up early for work tomorrow so it'll have to wait until tomorrow night to get finished... but it shouldn't be very difficult to get back together.. maybe an hour or two and it will be started up and hopefully it'll run great... i'm sure i'll have atleast one more question or two but i'd like to thank everyone who's contributed answers to my questions about this subject.. i owe you all one, and appreciate your help to no end. thank you.
Yeah don't forget the silicone sealant on the cooling passages. Most of the time I just run a bead around everything...for my own ease of mind.
If you don't want to deal with this issue anymore, you could install block drain petcock on either/both side(s) of the block. There should be a small plug/bolt at the bottom on both sides of the block. If water/antifreeze doesn't come out, Use a coat hanger to remove sediment blocking the drains. HTH:grin:
So, Kyle, maybe I missed it but what made you think the intake was leaking in the first place? Was this water into oil leak, a vacuum leak or what? I get really frustrated when I am working on any of the three projects I have right now. I just made up my mind a long time ago that the end result in any fight with a machine will always be: "Phil Wins". Maybe not on the first, or even the tenth try, but eventually all that experience with what doesn't work adds up. Go back and think about good you felt when that pesky fitting came loose. So far, on my 67 GS I hve done the full brake system change out from disk to drum, rebuilt the entire front end, installed a set of guages and some other really minor stuff. There were times doing that front end and brake work that I jsut wanted to kick the bloody thing off the jack stands and drag it on it's frame out for the trash man. Didn't do it though. My dad was really impressed with the car when he helped me finally bleed the new brake system and it all works, just like it's supposed to! Well, all projects are on hold for now. Just moved to Reno from Phoenix and still haven't gotten the temp landlord to repair the back gate so I can get the projects and the boat out there. The GS is still on the trailer I bought to haul it and the other projects up here and they are both sitting on his grass in the back yard. He'll probably wait until the grass dies then have a fit cause I/we killed it. Fun all the way around when working this kind of project. Keep your chin up, your hands dirty and the cold beers coming. It'll get done Kyle. Just a little at a time and if possible, finish one little thing or system before you start on the next one. That way, you'll actually see progress, which keeps you enthused about this sick sick hobby/curse, which will keep you moving forward. At least, that's what I keep telling myself..........
i am getting a little exhaust white smoke out the tailpipes... nothing major, but you could clearly see it. i just had this weird feeling it was the intake gasket.. one day at a car cruise i could see antifreeze in one of the valleys on the intake where the bolt was leaking... bad sign right there.. we torqued it down a bit more ... edelbrock said 25lbs all the way around... well, trust me, 25lbs doesn't keep **** in place on that intake... we gave it like 35-40 last time i think and it's stayed on good since.. but TA performance, who we ordered the intake from gave us the wrong intake gasket.. it was a 350 gasket and the intake was for a 455... duh... lol.. so my dad in his ingenius effort to get it to work reused the old one and didn't silcone anything... stupid mistake.. but my thing was this, i didn't know he didn't use the silcone i just thought the old gasket was at fault, it probably wasn't the gasket, but the lack of silicone that caused it... so... now that i've seen no silicone i've changed it from gasket to lack of silicone ON THE GASKET that was at fault.. I HOPE anyway, we'll find out for sure tomorrow night when i fire it up for the first time with the new gasket and silicone it all like a crazy person that fuel line is what got me all frustrated... then i couldn't get the hoses off ... damn those were tight as hell... then the bolts on the intake ... damn the locite lol... i bruised every knuckle trying to get those loose... leaked antifreeze all over the lifter valley... i'll end up having to change the oil for sure after that mess... but to add to the problems, our tractor today wouldn't shut off, so with my dad outta town i had to improvise and pull the plug wires off the plugs to get it shut down... about pissed me off there too... nothings been working in my favor... i'll need another set of hands to get that intake back on too... and i'll bet no one will be around to help either you can bet i'll be yelling and screaming about that as well... as long as i don't drop the intake on my fender i'm all set i guess hehe... $5000 paint job down the shitter.. *sigh* no need for that mess
Do you use the intake valley pan, or the side-type gaskets, Kyle? In any case, one of the common mistakes when installing the intake is to use way too much sealant on the front and back rubber seals, where they go across the top of the block to the heads. Sealant is needed at the 'corners; where the seals touch the heads. Too much there, and you have a good chance at an oil leak. I have only ever used the valley pan, but I use the Fel-Pro gasket set, and it comes with detailed instructions, and small tubes of the proper sealants for various parts of the gasket. they give you just about the right amount of sealant without giving you too little. One nice thing about the Edelbrock intake is it's about 45 lbs lighter than stock. that stock iron manifold is fun to chase around the engine, I'll tell you, lol Get some old beach towels, or do what I do and go to a store that sells bedding and ask if the have any blankets or something similar for sale. I used to get some really ugly blankets from Sears for about 8 bucks apiece. I then folded these in half and tossed them over the fender while I worked on the engine. Some of the fender covers that you can buy are a bit too expensive if you ask me, and they tend to just slide off the fender because the material likes to stay in it's folded shape. Just get a nice, ugly, cheap, soft blanket on sale and use that. I also keep something like that in the trunk, to lay on if the car breaks down on the road and I have to get under it. I think you're 100% correct about the yellow spots on the manifold- I was going to say, yellowish spots could just be iron in your water:TU:
Chris- A very good post! Your reasoning is good. Just want to clarify a point for you. This is an urban legend. In fact you want the coolant moving as quickly as possible for maximum cooling. The rest of your post is great- running without a thermostat is the wrong thing to do. Running enough pressure does increasing the boiling point, and also the heat transfer. And about your point on engine temperatures- ideally for daily driving, you want a 195 thermostat for maximum efficiency and economy, to keep the plugs from fouling, etc. A 160 degree t-stat will help you at the track, since a cooler mixture and combustion chamber decrease detonation and allow a bit more airflow into the motor. Someday, someone will invent a variable-temp thermostat for us street-strip guys! Hey vendors, are you listening??? Steal my idea and make money! I'll even give you the design!!! And BTW the point about moisture in the oil is very important, it's another good reason to run the engine hot. I run a 160 t-stat with electric fans, and once in a while I'll idle the motor with the fans off so the engine heats up to 200 - 210 and cooks out moisture (and other acidic/corrosive volatiles in the oil, BTW). One other point for Kyle, where I'm less knowledgable but still experienced- some aluminum intake manifolds recommend a bolt torque of 25 ft-lbs. Whenever I've tried this, it's leaked antifreeze like crazy into the combustion chambers- if I tightened up to the recommended 55 ft-lbs, it stops leaking. TA recommends 55 for their aluminum intake, and that's what I use. I don't think you're going to hurt or deflect the aluminum by using 55 ft-lbs (be sure to use a washer under the head of your bolt if it's a hex-head). I do it in two steps- 30 ft-lbs then 55 ft-lbs. -Bob Cunningham
More proof that the stock embossed tin gaskets CANNOT be reused once torqued down. One time use ONLY!:error:
http://68.62.95.21/~logik/72Buick/CentTruck/ ok, here ya go man... my pain in the ass in all her glory... i love her none the less... i could never part with it.. i'd break down and cry for weeks if i ever did try to sell it... the best one right here..
