All pretty much true, and yet the SBB remains a surprisingly viable engine choice for a variety of reasons. I know you guys mostly love your 350's and for good reasons. If the MGB had a bit more space in the engine bay I'd be right there with you but since it doesn't, and the later cars were designed with the Rover V8 in mind (215) it turns out the 300 is the perfect choice for the car and with the addition of a 350 crank, TA heads and a few other goodies like the roller cam it is not hard to upgrade it to be every bit as good as the engines recently produced. Port injection and COP are quite adaptable to it as well as newer seals and such. The block itself is rigid and will handle any reasonable hp output on the street and has been proven competitive on the track. The alloy used has proven remarkably tough and durable and with modern oils and fuels can last just as long as any modern engine. The chamber and port design of the TA heads are every bit as good as anything recently produced. Personally I don't need 700 to 1000 hp but this engine has done it, and without failure. So just exactly what is it you are looking for? As for the 300 being derived from the 215, yes that is true and so was the GN. But the 215 while light was a weak product with several shortcomings related directly to the use of aluminum alloy in it's construction. To be blunt, it simply wasn't good enough and that is why it didn't last. Some of Rover's improvements were good, a few weren't. But by casting the 300 in steel Buick went back to a process they understood well enough to get exceptional results from the same modern thinwall design and the result was a resounding success. Which is why they remain viable to this day. Jim
the 215 while light was a weak product with several shortcomings related directly to the use of aluminum alloy in it's construction. To be blunt, it simply wasn't good enough Jim[/QUOTE] Jim you are right-on. Unfortunately, the aluminum casting material used by Buick has some flaws inside this material. My father had this aluminum block in his Buick special, I think it was a 1961, can't remember. The Buick Dealer said the coolant (Prestone installed by Buick) destroyed the aluminum. I don't know if this is true, but the Dealership gave him a brand-new Buick with a cast Irion block. As we all know, aluminum casting has improved a lot nowadays. You want to see how many alloys of aluminum there are, just look in McMaster/Carr catalog. As a machinist, I've worked with tons of aluminum alloys. Vet
See Machinery's Handbook for a complete breakdown of alloys, their composition and properties. That's one of the books I have literally studied from cover to cover, during my career as an R&D Machinist. (Also a Vet btw, Chair Force) Speaking of alloys, when does an alloy stop being cast iron and become cast steel? The distinction is wholly a matter of carbon content and alloying percentages and I'm not even sure that a fixed dividing line exists. It seems likely to me that Buick, with their high nickel blocks were pushing that line rather hard, and I doubt the iron blocks made today push it any harder. Another little tidbit to chew on, did you know that an aluminum LS engine weighs more than a SBB? The only real advantage that they seem to have is that with one engine family they span the range from 4.7L displacements up to 7L while the SBB range is from 5L to 5.7L. And they are bigger physically so less well suited to some uses than the Buick. Jim
The reason why I said to look into McMaster/Carr catalog is for the lay person. I have several Machinery's Handbooks myself. Lol What most people don't understand is, aluminum castings are not pure aluminum they are a alloy with other materials added for stronger castings and other issues. Your question > when does an alloy stop being cast iron and become cast steel? Well as far I understand an alloy, it's a makeup of several materials. So, I suspect that there more in the Buick BB's may have more than iron just steel and nickel. Casting is just a process, as well as you know. Great question. did you know that an aluminum LS engine weighs more than an SBB? YES, I did. But only recently did I find that out. The aluminum cylinders are sleeved with steel liners, so a little more weight here. I haven't seen or studied the LS engine, but I have to guess Chevy added a lot more material to handle all the HP this engine can make. There is no drought that the LS and especially the LT engines are way ahead of Buick engine, of course we are looking at newer Technolgy. I just read an article where a LT engine was built and developed 3,000 HP. Great communicating with you Jim. and hello to another VET. Vet (Navy)
Eh... in some ways, not in others. I know for a fact that the alloy used in the old SBC was a lower grade than Buick used and doubt the LT series is better as an example. Where Buick used the stronger alloy, Chevy just used more material. And it's pointless to make a max hp comparison when neither engine typically sees much over 500 hp for most uses except, as in the case of comparing the SBB to the 302 to demonstrate the relative strength and rigidity of the block. Clearly the 302 is mostly adequate for it's intended purpose. At the same time, I do see great things ahead for IC technology. Definitely not done yet. Jim
Actually, it is the 5.0 block that is around 40 lbs lighter than the older 302. They took weight out in the valley and the main webs. The Mexican truck/van block is 40 lbs heavier than the older 289/302 block with even thicker valley and main webs. Because the Ford doesn't have the extended block the Buick has, it needs a girdle or 4 bolt conversion to strengthen the main cap area.
Was watching a video on making steel, or maybe it was aluminum, but anywho, they’d throw in different metals in the mix like Moms threw in chocolate chips into the batter
Well Jim I had a Chevy 327, the 365 HP version in my 56 Chevy Belair, I pushed the hp to 450. I shifted at 6,700 rpm's, et was 11.2. Never broke any part only replaced clutches. The engine back in 64 didn't have 4 bolt mains either. One of the strongest engines I ever raced with. I once missed a shift and took it to 8,000 rpm's, never damaged anything and it was the high performance engine that Chevy put in their 64 Corvette. I mean I beat this car every time I drove it, street raced every body. I was 21 years old at the time and crazy about drag racing. Even had my license suspended for street racing. Fortunately I matured but, I still like to street raced if it's safe place to do it. Had a young kid pull up beside me in my 70 GS 455, with his rice burner Honda, revived his engine, I thought, you got to be kidding me. I looked around and saw no cops, when the stop light turned green, I blew his door handles off. Next stop light, he wouldn't even pull next to me, lol. Vet
That's the way it works, that's the reason why they call it alloy. A mixture of various materials. I think metallurgy is a fascinating science. Vet
I have the 26th edition of the Machinery's Handbook, digital copy (PDF) If anyone would like a copy I can probably send it by email.
RPM is the secret to horsepower of course. Johnny has wound his SBB to 10 grand and I think he regularly shifts at about 8. I have no clue where he is now on hp but I know it's up there. Jim
Really, shifts at 8,000 rpms and has taken it to 10,000 rpm's. I have to say, that is far from the original SBB. That engine has been modified way past what Buick originally designed it. Wouldn't you agree? That is one bad ass Buick 350. I thought my 327 shifts at 6,700 were high, but of course that was back in the stone age, 1970, lol. Vet
I normally shift mine at 6500 at the track, went to 7000 a few times to see if it made any difference, it didn’t.
You have to remember back in 1970, I was still in the Navy making peanuts for money. Basically my valve train was stock. Only mod was beehive valve springs, with aluminum retainers. No roller rockers. Spent all my money (a lot) on the Offenhauser low profile tunnel ram intake. This manifold is made for high rpm runs. All the internal engine parts are good old 1964 GM Corvette high performance parts. Trw pistons @ 11 1/4 CR with chrome moly rings. The great 30/30 solid lifter cam. Fantastic cam. Stock forged crank, Corvette big valve heads, Corvette high performance oil pump. Here's a trick. Mechanical fuel pump used from a 409 BB. Gives you another 2 pounds of fuel pressure. Bolts right up to a SSB, no mods required. Other aftermarket add-ons, but won't go into that. Bolt all this up to a T-10 trans and a set of Zoom 4.55 ring and pinion and a nice set of cheater slicks and hunt down Mopars, Fords, AMCs, Chevys, GTOs, and 442s. Never saw a Stage 1 Buick in my town. Man, those were the fun days, the 70's. Vet
After mulling the 10 grand out of a Buick SB, almost sound like a formula 1 car. They turn some awesome rpm's. I would love to see and hear this Buick going down the track. I bet internally, there's not one Buick part in there but the block and everything else is either been modified or is aftermarket high performance gear. What ET's is he running? Vet. PS, You sure he's not running in Pro stock? I guess i'am just falling all over myself with reading this amazing performance.
Others will know more. He quit posting on here because he felt nobody was listening to what he had to say, which is just sad for everyone. I'd just like to meet the man in person, we'd have a lot in common. Early 70's were a hoot. A buddy bought a radical 289 from the local speed shop for cheap and dropped it in his '63 Mustang then later wanted to swap for a date so I took his ride out and went hunting. That little monster would zing right up past 7 grand without even thinking about it. Surprised a few muscle cars that night. Sorta surprised me too to be fair about it. I was just hanging on and trying to keep the pedal down. Had another buddy who used to regularly take his 327 Camaro out and go hunting big blocks. Rumor was he never lost. But it wasn't stock either. Another had his car, can't remember now whether it was a Camaro or a Mustang, odd the things you forget. Anyway he had it set up so it hopped when he launched it so that it planted the tires solidly. I have no doubt it came off the line really fast but that thing was a real hoot to ride in. Every time he gave it any gas it'd hop. Fun days. My thing was the mountain roads. I liked to set up a continuous drift through the esses. Made for some really fast trips between Dover and Charleston, WV. Jim
I agree, the 70's was a hoot. The reason why the SB chevy 327 and SB ford 289 made high rpms and hp for their size is because they were what is called a square block. The bore size and stroke were almost the same dimensions. Great combo for rpm & hp. With our mouse motors we always hunted for Big Blocks. For example, I could make as much HP and more than the heavy 396 and 427 Camaros and Chevelles and Roadrunners, GTX's and Chargers. My 56 Belair only weighted 3195 lbs., so HP to weight was better than the 70's cars. My 70 GS Skylark is 3800 lbs. I need some NASCAR aluminum front end and bumpers, lol. In fact, I never had a 440 every come close to beating me and 383's were no challenge. Most of these factory cars were turning 14, high 13 second ET's. I once encountered a Camaro that turned a mid- 12.6 et but it wasn't factory stock. There is something about a SB engine that turns very high rpms you never forget that screaming sound. Boy, I miss those days. Vet
I'm with you on the curves. I like quick but fast in the twisties was what I loved. Back in 1979, I had a BBC Chevelle that would drop 20psi of oil pressure when you laid into the curves at the limits. I had 245-R60-15 tires all around while my contemporaries were running 5" VW tires up front and bias ply N50s out back. With 3.31 gears, a TA front sway bar and urethane bushings, it was only moderately quick but nobody could make the run to the bootleggers and back as quick as I could. At 6000 RPM, the speedo was pointing straight down. It should have been a true 140MPH, not theoretical. We hit 140 a dozen times the summer I bought that car. On the 10K RPM on a SBB, it sounds pretty impossible with anything in the rotating assembly being stock. I'd imagine forged steel crank, aluminum rods and featherweight pistons at a minimum. I can't imagine what valve train he was running to be able to control that. Surely a roller cam and over-the-top over-the-nose spring pressure.
