You will suffer performance for wanting to keep the GS air cleaner and the intake it will work with. There are a lot of people that run a different air cleaner when driving, and put the GS air cleaner on for shows. Our 464 dyno'd just over 500 hp with a performer intake and Quadrajet that I built for it. Gained HP and TQ when we went to SPX intake. Now after cam change and more tuning, we are at 600hp. Car is driven on highway and street weekly (not daily anymore, was for years) on pump gas. And, to emphasize, this motor has much more than $3500 in it. I'm building an iron head 462 for my convertible for under $3500 and hope to have 425 hp or so.
If you are really on a budget then why not just use a good running short block and add some good heads onto it? I think what you may be after more than HP is some good low rpm torque and you really do not have to do much to get that with a 455...
What year 455 do you have and how many miles are on it? Will you need a new front cover or oil mods? Also add cam kit to price. You can save $'s by buying a used cam., but use new lifters. I wouldn't take a chance on someone accidentally mixing one up. You could also check this site for slightly used pistons and rods or discounted new ones. A lot of people change plans. Take the next couple of months to think and plan and look for discount parts to help with your budget. Maybe the guy building the 462 with iron heads can put a budget together with machine work and post it. His project is more realistic for what you have budgeted. You can post for parts in the "parts wanted" section. Call Gessler he had some used cams and parts for sale. Call all the Buick engine builders, they usually have used and discounted parts just ask them. If you take a little time you can stretch that budget to build a good bottom end. Add the heads later!
X2 If you look at the Car Craft article (Post#17), there is a 28 hp gain with the SPX over the B4B intake manifold with the "Out of the box" Edelbrock head. It will be even greater with your combination. If you look at the dyno sheets from the Car Craft article, the B4B manifold has a torque advantage over the SPX from 2700 to 3700 rpm with a peak difference of 30 ft lbs at 3000 rpm. Beyond 3700 the B4B takes a straight line decline in torque while the SPX maintains 530 ft lbs to 4900 rpm. In this case the SPX manifold makes a lot more power under the curve. If you look at a ported head, TA413 cam with SP1 manifold, the torque curve increases a good amount after 3800 rpm. The dual plane manifold would be a mismatch in this case and is better suited for hp applications under 500. Now it becomes a matter of matching the torque converter. If you decide later on to use a transmission with lock up converter and overdrive (It won't be cheap at this power level) then you can have low rpm cruising and high stall for destroying brand "X" cars. Some may even suggest to keep the TH400 and use a switch pitch converter. You already know this but no matter what air cleaner you decide on, it is very important that it takes in outside air and not hot air from the engine compartment. Not only will it cost you hp but will also make the engine more prone to detonation Paul
If it's a street car than don't worry about dyno numbers. The highrise single plane intakes are great for drag cars and show cars but in stop and go traffic there's alot to be said for the low rpm torque of the dual plane intakes. If you're going to build a car that sees mostly track time and is built to impress your buddies than go with the single plane highrise setup and put down the numbers that impress the chevy folks. Same with cam choices. If you want rumble and dyno numbers than be carefull that you don't end up sacrificing your brakes. If it's a track car you have more wiggle room than on a street car when it comes to braking distance and exactly how much vacuum you can sacrifice. I think the important question is, what do you consider an unstreetable motor?
The whole blog going here was just about the Edelbrock head, performance achieved by you guys. And my basic needs of being able to run a base 12 second or high 11 second quarter to beat the current MUSTANG and CAMARO cars. Of course not street racing, way to old for that. All that being said I don't plan on doing the quarter mile more than a few times. Not my thing anymore. Just love the power,and respect we get with nice cars. :beer
So did you get all the information you needed or would you like further input on the engine build? It was nice to be able to discuss the Edelbrock head constructively
Okay, well yes. Any other cam options besides the TA413? I see the heads quit flowing just after 500 lift. Wouldn't one want the cam to open past that point to keep the valve open longer? I don't make cams, just asking. Seems like the valves would be open at max lift for a very short time with that cam. Also how about power brakes with the TA413 cam? Decent, marginal, terrible???? IT was really nice to get some quality info from everyone. Great inputs. The more vendor options we have the better. It will force everyone to build a better product or fail. That's how it works. Anyone have a comment on the Gessler verse Performance Components CNC heads?? I received a email from Finish Line on their Edelbrock heads. Here it is. we can do the eddy's a couple ways or if you know how you want them we can work to your specs. This is what we have as a standard package and is the most popular right now. CNC package eddlebrock heads valves reworked. combustion chamber cnc'd, complete race cnc to ports. heads will be machined to achieve desired compression, valves springs will be check and addressed based on cam shaft that will be run in motor(solid,hyd..ETC). you get stainless steel full roller rockers, 3/8's hardened 1 piece push rods. Price for that package is $3225.00 the cnc'd eddy flow a peak of 325-330 intake and 225 -230 exhaust. We have several combos done with these now that are street with a little race and they have good street manners and still make great power high 500's for horse power and we have a couple that are pump gas more race than street but still street driven that are over 600 and run mid tens. We have a motor that is about to go on the dyno that is a street piece that has a small solid in it that will be over 600 and be driven daily. We can also do a basic street strip port package that will have the heads in the low to mid 3teens on intake side and low 200's on the exhaust there is no chamber work or resurface included in this price. price for street strip port $600.00 we can do any variance of this based on your needs but it is easier to go over that info over the phone. If you would like to talk to me feel free to call @ 1-616-765-5101 ask for Bobb Thanks Bobb Even the basic port/polish seems reasonable.
Get the same info from Greg to so you're comparing apples to apples. It does no good to compare flow numbers if you don't know the difference between the work that's done to get those numbers. Devon
In post #17 I suggested that you use the Chevy 1.6 ratio rocker for that reason. It would increase the lift to .516. Looking at many of the posts concerning the TA413 cam versus power brakes, there are cases where the vacuum is marginal and some cases where the driver says "no problem". That would indicate that any other variable that affects low rpm airflow or vacuum can also play a part, so cam alone is not the only consideration. Now that you are looking at having someone port the head, the exhaust port can be made to flow so that you can take advantage of a single duration profile cam. The TA413 cam has 10 degrees more exhaust duration than intake duration at .050 lobe lift. 234/244 If the exhaust duration was decreased 10 degrees to 234 like the intake you would get the following improvements: The overlap would be decreased by 5 degrees (13 down to 8) improving idle and low rpm running quality along with improved fuel mileage at cruising rpm. The shorter duration exhaust opens the exhaust valve later which increases midrange torque. If you want to trade a little upper end power for more midrange, then the TA310 with 232/232 can be used. It is ground on a 110 lobe center which is 3 degrees tighter than the TA413, closing the intake valve 4 degrees sooner than the TA413 for increased low and midrange torque. You also pick up engine vacuum. This will limit the static compression ratio closer to 10:1 On the other side of the TA413 is the TA290 at 238/238 on a 112 lobe center. With 238 degrees of duration and head porting to match, 600+ hp should be easy. Since it has a single duration profile, it has only 1 degree of overlap more than the TA413 so the idle quality is about the same. The intake valve closes 1 degree later than the TA413 (Based on advertised duration) so 10.5 static compression ratio is also good. However this combination will cut into the budget since it would be a good idea to use aftermarket rods and pistons. This is where the rod journals are offset ground to 2.20 so you can use the cheaper off the shelf Eagle 6.8 BBC rod and the not so cheap custom Diamond pistons. You pick up .050 in stroke for 470 cu in and a better rod ratio with the longer rod. The Diamond pistons compression height is adjusted so that very little block decking is needed to get small piston to deck clearances for the higher compressions. Less deck and intake manifold machining helps offset the cost of the pistons. You are also getting spherical dish pistons which provides better quench and faster burn than the standard dish. Again this cuts into the budget a few hundred dollars but what a bang for the buck. http://www.v8buick.com/showpost.php?p=1438664&postcount=4 Here is a shortblock breakdown http://www.v8buick.com/showpost.php?p=1438975&postcount=9 Just a final note: TA Performance can have different cams ground based on the existing catalog of lobe profiles and the lobe centers can also be varied according to your need. Paul
Competetion Components lists their Ededlbrock CNC flow 321 @ 500 Gessler flow rates per Stan Weiss cyl flow charts are 294 @ 500 Quite a difference there, are the Competition Comp. heads really that much better? Waterwolf, Both Greg Gessler and Competition Components are very good at what they do. The difference in the numbers are probably just the level of porting. I guess you have to compare the difference in cost between the two setups. The CNC ported stuff is very nice!!! Either way you go, I am sure you will not be disappointed with your choice!!! Good Luck:3gears:
Not trying to get any threads deleted/locked but IMO this is a valid question. What Is the purpose of buying Edelbrock Heads? Yes you might save a few bucks but does/is Edelbrock going to reinvest any of that money in our ever aging motors like the only other BBB head maker does?
The whole purpose of this thread is to constructively explore what it takes to use the Edlebrock head. As you mentioned, it has never been done successfully on this Forum so there is a need to do so. With all the information in one thread, the readers can weigh the info for themselves and decide what direction they would like to go. What you said is understood by all of us. I have put my bias aside in order to contribute to the success of this thread and the hopes are that everyone else will do the same. Paul
Thanks everyone for keeping this forum semi focused. Alot of information was put out there. There are a few concerns with OEM Edelbrock assemblies, I'm sure they will address them soon. I hope! It is obvious they can make Huge HP/Torque, with some tweaking, but the TA heads are in that same boat. All heads bennifit from port work. Some more then others. I understand everyones concern of the edelbrock verse the entire TA line of components. TA obviously is extremly commited to the buick world, we need that, and should support them. There are a few highly recommended Buick cylinder head porters who have invested alot of R&D in these Edelbrock heads to make them really flow, they deserve support, and recognition for their work in the Buick community, just like TA. But we need to welcome in a new option whenever possible. I don't want only one choice, one vendor for all my parts. I'm sure you can all understand that. Competition keeps pricing down, creates a need to invest in developing new products, revising their products/procedures, ect. Plus good or bad the manufactures learn from each others product, what does and doesn't work. What if General Motors only made CHEVYS, where would we be today. Discussing Camaros?:3gears:
I am going to bring this thread back up to the top with a follow up question. What type of performance can I expect from a set of out of the box edelbrock heads? comparable to stock iron, stage 1 iron? I am starting a build over the winter and I'm considering the Edelbrock heads. I am not looking for even 500 hp. I have a well built th350 trans with an 8.2 bop rear with 3.55 posi. I want a fun street car, no plans for the track at all.
I finaly ran my car a few weeks ago and am very satisfied.My 4000 lb car went 12.71 @ 107.I did nothing to the heads except cleaned the exhaust port up less than a hours worth of work.I also used a combo of 1.5 and 1.6 rockers.I belive there is more left in my combo also but that will be next year.
Since we just Built a budget 464 with E-heads i thought i'd share my Opinion Engine- 73 455 all Oil Mods ect .040 over 10.8:1 compression No Piston Notches with TRW 21.5cc dish pistons TA 413 Cam 109ILC TA lifters with 3/8 push rods and cheap 1.6 roller rockers, chinese timing cover TA Pump and parts Cam and lifters were what customer supplied= not my first choice! Edelbrock Heads Ported By ME 215cc intake port 145cc exhaust port TA SP1 Ported By Me Plenum and runner mods with a 1" open spacer TA long tube Headers, 750 DP carb from the age of dinosaur's! at 5500rpm we were at 578hp before valve control issues insued ughhh! i.e. cam and lifters! Torque Was flat as a table from 3800-5500 at over 550ft lbs with a peak of 584 at 4500rpm I Love the Heads, I think they are a great bargain for the Buick 400-430-455 engines and I Really wish We had a Smaller Split Cam on a tighter LSA Because we Made a Good Exhaust Port and I Think Buicks in my Experience at Higher Power Levels like tighter LSA's Compared to the Pontiacs i build so i'm having a custom ground solid flat tappet cam made = 239-244 At .050 111LSA but i am still very pleased with the overal project and highly recomend the E-heads, they aren't as nice as TA heads But with at Least some Short turn surgery on the Exhaust Side They Flat Work Plain and Simple! Good luck with your Build BTW on the Street in a 3400lb 76 camero this Engine is an ANIMAL! Buicks Make 426 Hemi's Look like rotary mazdas lol
Update,after some driving and some small changes my best run so far is 11.82 113 MPH my e heads are out of the box nothing done to them.
