So as I get my car ready for the Pure Stock meet, I've had some conversations with a few people about restoring my car. And the discussion/recommendation has again been brought up that I should just find a nice rust free shell and use that instead of trying to repair what I have. First a little history of the car. Actually for those interested in seeing pics from when I bought it, they can be seen here 1969 Cutlass S W-31 It's a 69 Cutlass S W-31, automatic. Original engine freshly rebuilt, only things missing are the ram air hoses and scoops. original JO coded TH350 was rebuilt like 6 years ago. Original 3.91 anti-spin rear, which was recently swapped out for a recently rebuilt 68 TW coded 4.33 anti-spin. The 3.91 is being saved/stored. She's also an original paint car, code 80 which is powder blue. Of course, the paint is faded now and there are issues with the rear qtrs (brown and black primer in spots). The body. She hasn't changed since I bought it, but being a Chicago car it's entire life, it needs extensive work. Panels that are shot and/or need repair include: trunk floor, drop offs, rear qtrs, inner and outer wheel houses, small patches on the panel in the trunk above the rear axle (someone drilled 4 access holes for the shock mounting hardware), repair or replace the doors, patch the front fenders (these have the original grease pencil W-31 marks so I'm fixing these), front windshield channel will need attention and it wouldn't surprise me if the back window does too. The floor pans are in surprisingly good shape, but they will probably need a small custom patch here and there. The is a hole in the rocker on the backside on the passenger side IIRC. Basically it needs a whole rear clip and patches to what is left. There is also 3 dents in the roof. A few dents in the hood, a couple rear small holes and a crack by the latch. Because 69 W-31s (or any original and real W-car for that matter) are somewhat difficult to come by, my first gut instinct was to repair what I have, especially since the car is so original (albeit rough) So years ago I purchased a 69 442 parts car from AZ. This car/shell has some issues too, but a lot of it can be cut off and used to save my original shell. Since I'm so anal and a stickler for details I want to save my car. However, after thinking about costs for all this body work, it's becoming quickly apparent that this kind of money I just flat out don't have. (I could VERY easily see $20K in the car for paint and bodywork and this doesn't even include the chunk of change I dropped for the engine rebuild and then there is interior and all the chrome) Of course, I could embark on a 10-15 year restoration, but I'm already working on that with my 66 GTO (for various reasons). so from a cost and time standpoint, the thought of finding a rust free shell, saving what I can from my original shell (interior, front fenders etc), and rebodying my car sounds like an ideal alternative, especially when my wallet is concerned. One problem I have with this, and this is just something I may have to get over and live with, is I would know my car has been rebodied. I guess I just need some time to weigh all the pros and cons and let this option sink in, before I give it serious consideration. One plus of going the rebody-route, is that the restoration could begin on the rust free shell and I could still enjoy driving and racing my current car until it's time to recover seats etc and swap things over. The car also probably needs a frame too as the current frame has lots of scale and pits so it wouldn't look good after a blasting and painting/powdercoating. The rear frame rails are also a little thin. So I guess I'm looking for some thoughts and opinions about what to do and what you guys would recommend. Thanks for listening to me ramble on. and on. and on ......
I may have help Chris: See PM. I may have a body/chassis that will save you a lot of grief. Don't glue a rust bucket back together that you already suspect. It'll only be worse as you cut into it for repairs.
no clone i would'nt consider it a clone,there are plenty of restored cars out there that have new floor pans ,door skins,quarters,and their still orig,its just like replacing a fender,your not turning the car into something it was not.just hurry up and do it,so we can go racing.like tom says the 3 S's.:3gears:
Even bodies had part numbers The bodies for all the cars built at Lansing came across town from the Fisher body plant without VIN's and had a GM part number assigned to them. It was a generic part number used in accounting to trade off the wooden nickels between the Olds division and Fisher Body. My guess is Buick and Pontiac also did same or similar in their home plants in Flint and Pontiac. They were assigned an order number that spelled out the options, cors, etc. Most of that is coded on the Fisher cowl plate. So...........changing a body is not any more devious than a quarter panel, roof section, floors, etc. like OEM says. Or how about the original engine, trans? They were stamped with the VIN. Not sure about the engine, trans, or the frame as the VIN was stamped into them rather than attached by a rivetted on plate. Turning the car into something it wasn't is bad, too if it's then represented that way to make $$$. Probably more of them out there than ever these days. Once they change hands a coupla times, who would know?
RUST SUXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX :shock: i've got a # matching 69 GS stage 1 4 spd non A/C car that's about in the same shape as yours :ball: personally I would never buy a retaged car.... nor do I really want one.... and I don't know what i'm going to do with mine either uzzled: o No:it's really a tough call to make :ball: Chris their's a 69 W-31 4 spd here in northern Ohio thats had some panel work and it's a show winner :eek2:
Korrie, interesting thread, although it didn't really answer my question. It seemed to get off on related tangents (can you do that?) about potential buyers and sellers down the road and how the car might be represented. Now I can see where this might be a problem, but the fact of the matter is a) I never said my car was for sale and in fact it isn't right now unless ridiculous money is thrown my way. b) I can't worry about what may or may not happen in the future, I can only be concerned with the here and now. as a side note, thats news to me that Texas disregards the complete vin stamped on the dash (I'm talking GM A-body so there isn't confusion with other brands I'm not familiar with) and looks at the vin derivative stamping on the frame. The stamping on the frame isn't even the complete vin so it would never match the title, only the last 8 positions would match assuming the original frame to the car as it left the factory.
Re: the three "s" theory Tom, completely understand where you are coming from. I think what I'm going to do is gather thoughts and opinions on my car and when I make my decision, I'll keep it to myself.
Re: Even bodies had part numbers Dave, I do know Pontiac sheetmetal had part numbers stamped in it in various places. I parted a 66 GTO and it had numbers stamped in the trunk channel by the weatherstripping. you know, I've changed my stance from years ago. Before I was completely against rebodying a car. But after thinking about it and having several people state, what's the difference if you replace, the roof, quarters, trunk floor and floor panels, windshield channel, etc, etc. Is this still the original car even though 90% of the sheetmetal has been replaced because of rust (or accident damage)? What makes a car original? Now granted, my car as it sits is original. But it's rough. If I'm going to restore it, in some people's eyes it isn't original anymore (quarters placed, replace trunk floor, replace trunk lid etc etc), but it still is a 69 Cutlass S W-31. Rebodying the car, well perhaps it isn't original anymore, but then technically replacing one rusted out rear qtr could make the car not original too. There also is the point (not to nit pick, but) what happens if say you cut 1 inch around the area in the dash where the vin plate is riveted and transfer that metal to a rust free shell thats had the same thing done. Is this any different, than replacing 99% of the sheetmetal from the rusted shell? I don't know, thats why I'm wondering. a clone to me is something else. to me it's taking a Camaro and putting all the Yenko items on it. taking a Cutlass and putting all the 442 and W-30 items on it. taking a Malibu and putting all the Chevelle and LS6 items on it. If you represent the car as a clone, thats one thing. You represent it as a Yenko, W-30, LS-6 Chevelle that's something else. I'm still 50/50 on what in the world I'm going to do, but the one thing I do know, I'm not planning on selling the car, so talking about what 2-3 owners after me _might_ do doesn't address the current owners dilemma. Thanks for all the insight so far.
Re: RUST SUXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Mark, sounds like we are in the same boat. And you're right, it's a real tough call. I guess this isn't the car that fairly recently appeared on 442.com then. there was a red/red 4sp 69 W-31 that was pretty rusty in northeast OH IIRC. Original engine was apart. I think the asking price was like $4900 firm. ouch!!!!
If you use a rivet gun and nobody is around to see it, did it really happen? A lot of restored cars get many panels and even frames replaced. The vin tags get removed for painting. So what if ALL your panels are replaced and the vin reinstalled after paint? :Brow: I think it is better to save a car with a rebody than let it set because the economics don't justify a restoration. I've seen and heard of more rebodies than most folks would like to hear about. It's a dirty little secret that happens everyday.
On the right track You're on the right track, Chris. The two frame stamps do only include the year, plant code, and the sequential 6 digit number that's unique to your car. Same numbers were stamped on the engine and transmission at the factory. In your case they should be 9MXXXXXX. Any other numbers on the car do not tie to the VIN, but are part numbers, date codes, etc. The Fisher Body plate also doesn't tie to the VIN, but does have a date code in there, I understand. Obviously if that date is later than the date codes on the chassis that could be a problem for someone with numbers match. Brian is 1000% correct. There is more of that going on in the big buck cars that you see in the shyster "Muscle Car"dealers (like a few in this area), Hemmings, and probably even one or two that get through Barrett Jackson than a car like yours or mine or 99% of the people on this board. If a car seems to good to believe, it probably is too good to believe. You wouldn't believe how many times my Ramrod was slammed as a clone. Actually resulted in my giving up my 4 digit OCA membership number and presuaded me to start having fun with it rather than a pissing match every time I took it to an OCA show or meet. BTW, the only reason there are two frame stamps on these old A cars (like you, the only things I really know anything about (except old Flathead Fords, a Wheel Horse tractor or two)) is that the frames were made out of pretty much junk low carbon steel and have hard and soft parts in the metal. We stamped it twice to insure that between the two, you could figure out what it was because we rarely got a good stamp at both locations and we were stamping 1600 frames a day in the Lansing plant and those tools did get worn quickly. ........and the workers on the line would skip one if they got behind. Buy off was one "good" stamp. That meant if you knew what number you were looking for, yeah, that kinda looks like it. :grin:
Hey guys, I have a nice pop rivet gun that I'll lend you and if you pay for shipping my big carcass,I'll even venture to your house and show you how to use it.....Like Chris said above,as long as you aren't trying to scam someone that a vin # 6 cylinder car is really a ultra rare 442.GS,etc then I believe its ok.Too many uppity people want you to destroy or part out your cars so theirs will be more rare and worth more.You can see my point in the other thread. Pat
YYYYAAAAAAHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shock: Pat you couldn't of put it any better then that and!!!!!!!! what they have is gold......... what you have is junk :blast: :moonu: :moonu: to all the uppity people :moonu:
rebody I know how you feel.I picked up a 71 stage 1 car a couple of years ago,rough kinda stripped out,but a real stage car i think.I ended up cutting it up and keeping the tags and what parts i could use.Not to long after i picked up a 71 skylark rustfree california car,probably couldve tagged it but kinda scared to do it. Probably should have kept the stage car but oh well.
would one of these be the blue 69 S post that Karl Sup in AZ bought? I thought about looking into that car, but then I've already got enough projects.
