Ive been looking at some ta cams(212, and the 290-94) and then come here and do research. And was wondering why the 212 is always the go to option. I like the 290 because it says it will work with 9:8:1(which is what i have) compression and a 2600 stall. But when I come here it seems like it wont work. And I know the Crower is a popular one but Im just not happy with their numbers. Now I did think about making a cam with 227/235 duration at .50 and something like .490/.495 lift or less, But I like a cam with split duration and lift. I also even considered the 413 but I think it has to much lift for the street and could be better on a 112lsa. But what im ultimately after is torque as well as performance and sound. The car is a 90% street car I drive it everyday. but occasionally ill go to a street car meet out at the track here. The car is also a heavy 4500 pound wagon, and I know the 212 seems like the perfect cam because of the street aspect but before this car I drove truck with 468 and a xe284 cam and thought I was perfectly streetable and was decently fast as well, so I think big cams can be daily driven.
From your description of the specs you want that is almost exactly the Crower level 4. Thats too big for stock manifolds. The level 3 makes more torque and is better all the way around. If you have headers, intake, 2500 stall, and about 10.25 compression then level 4 will work but still have less torque than level 3. Level 3 is the best all around 350 cam I've found. Are you positive you have 9.8 compression? Like you did actual measurements and calculations. Factory spec is overstated by .5 to .75 as built. A 350 is not a 468. You can get by with bigger cams with more cubic inches. The big difference is the way a BB draws on the intake. The big bore/short stroke makes a big cam work better. A 350 bore/stroke is square and does not respond the same as a BB. If you do choose a custom grind go with the roller cam.
Yes I actually measured it. And I have headers, and thought about even purchasing the large valves from TA. the only thing I don't have is a aluminum intake. I guess what I dont like about the crower is how little duration there is. to me the 212 seems better on paper, and that it seems like it runs out of breath really early. I plan on running this engine to 5800 I already shift it at 5000 and seems to have power all the way there( and it sounds like a stock cam). will the level3, level, 212, 290-94, or a custom hyd flat tappet from Scotty Brown with specs of the 67003 lunati cam with just less lift work? only reason i threw the lunati cam in is because I like the specs just in my eyes has way to much lift for stock rockers and stock pistons.
actually just looked at the specs for the level 4 better and seems decent for what I'm after. Will it work with stock intake,rockers, pistons, and valves? or should they be upgraded to the TA valves? Also what is everyone using for valve springs? Only reason I ask about the stock pistons is because TA told me anything over .500 is close on a 350.
With anything more than the level 3 you will need an intake or will suffer some loss on top end. NEVER cut the divider out of your intake or your low end will drop with zero gain on top. As always every combo is different and you must measure the clearance. If you are using stock pistons they are probably .100" down the hole. I would worry less about the clearance and worry about how long before they break. Cast pistons won't last long over 5000 RPM. I use the Crower springs with Crower cams so theres no mismatch or warranty issues. You can use TA stage 1 springs with stock retainers and save a little money. TA big valves seem to work well with every combo. I've never heard anyone say they lost power from them. Big valves help the flow at low lifts. Beyond about .380" lift on a stock head the valve throat is the restriction. Open the throats to the bottom seat cut and don't waste your time on the rest of the port. I've went a little over .500" lift with stock rockers with no issues.
9.8 is fine for either the level 3 or 4. I've been running 9.8 with my level 3 for 8 years. Tried 10.1 with the level 4 but the stock iron intake and exhaust would not let it breathe. I'm putting the level 3 back in with the big valves back down to 9.8 compression.
don't base your entire thought of a cam on its specs,unless you know exactly how they will act together in a buick 350 and that doesn't guarantee performance. from what your describing you seem to be thinking of the bigger is better theory and overcamming. the voodoo series cams from lunati are not that great either. a custom grind from scott brown might be something to look into. I do not think the 212 cam will outperform the crower cam just outrev it . and it still needs hi flow heads for it to perform. if you want a crazy cam the doesn't really perform but has impressive sounding specs and will make all kinds of exhaust tone try a comp cams big mutha thumpr.. the 413 has proven itself. as the 284-88 has and also fits with your convertor. but more stall will be needed for most cams bigger that the 212 I didn't see you mention what rear end gearing your running. consider that gearing to work with the cam you chose along with rpm range of cam and what intake you have. smaller cam and dual plane intake will be better for lower end torque then a single plane intake which will like higher rpm hp
http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.p...&highlight=70'+post+skylark+back+at+the+track here is a proven setup also. single pattern.
There are lots of opinions about cams but I have never drove with a crower cam so I cannot make any statements about it... I can however speak for the 212 cam, it works great in mild low compression vehicles. There are lots of cams that will work great.
What Steve said. Also, the TA 212 is an excellent option, according to statistical data and real world testimonies to back it up. It's kinda like in-between the Crower level 3 and level 4, if you had to put a label on it. In a Buick 350, the 212 has much better street manners than larger cams, and is about as big as you'd want to go without the whole shebang of add-ons. If you're looking for street friendly performance cams, the choices typically boil down to either the Crower level 3 or the TA 212, unless you want to go custom, in which case roller is your best option. I can also toss in the least popular option (because it's boring lol), and that is the Federal Mogul CS647 "Stock GS" cam, which won't produce quite as much power as the aforementioned cams, but has a wider powerband and lasts 10x longer. Powerband 1500-5000 RPM with stock manifolds, wider with long tube headers. In fact, about 500 RPM higher on HP peak (from 4600 peak to 5100 peak) using headers, with equally increased shift points (instead of 5000 RPM with manifolds, about 5500 RPM with headers). Reasons for this have been explained elsewhere before, so I'll sum it up briefly by saying 'trust me'. All cams recommended used with Crower's camsaver lifters and proper oil pressure for maximum longevity. Gary
Food for thought: Blueprinted "Stock GS" Buick 350 engine using Properly tuned 750 CFM Quadrajet, TA's dual plane intake, 4 hole 1" spacer, mildly ported "Stage 1" heads (1.92/1.55 I/E valve size, 230 CFM intake/150 CFM exhaust, peak I/E flow @.400 lift), Federal Mogul CS647 camshaft, small tube headers (1 5/8" primaries, 3" collector), bored .030 over (355 CID) using cast pistons @10.21:1 SCR/ 7.75:1 DCR on 93 octane pump gas @195* thermostat (210*-215* ambient temperature) and sea level elevation produces: "Averaged power output between .006 and .050 lift; dual plane high flow; small tube headers with open mufflers comes to 402 (322 SAEnet) ft. lbs. @3750 RPM (383.5@2000 RPM) with 341 (273 SAEnet) hp @5000 RPM (313 HP @6000 RPM). Averaged torque between 2000-5000 RPM: 394.5 ft. lbs. (2000-4000@.050/3000-5000@.006) (between 2000-3500 RPM = 389 ft. lbs.) Averaged HP between 4000-6000 RPM: 319.5 hp. -GF" I call this the "Stock Buick GS350 Stage 1 'HHH'" engine (HiFlow,Hicomp,Headers). This is with a VE of 78%-85% (81.5% average) between 3000-5500 RPM. Testament (at least on paper, thus far... hint hint) to how opening up the engine for improved flow quality/better velocity using the same cam really wakes it up. If you want a few more hp/ft. lbs. at the cost of 200,000 miles, that's your prerogative. Gary
Don't forget he is going to need a cam that produces MUCHO low end at a low RPM to get his 4500pd. wagon moving.
Gary, I've enjoyed reading your posts and have found them extremely informative. I am curious about your emphasis on engine life. I would guess that most of these engines won't see 200k and many won't see 30k. I know none of mine will see those kinds of miles. So in that light, a few more horsepower and a little bit of lope might seem a reasonable trade off? Brian Y. PS No trailer queens here, I just drive them for fun. Modern cars are just more convenient and more importantly safer. IIHS posted a video on YouTube a few years back of a Bel-air and a 2009 Malibu. Survivable by the Malibu, tragic for the Bel-Air driver.
Much agreed. Older cars aren't as safe as newer ones (much to many people's surprise). This is due to crumple/crush zones put in place by the engineers to absorb as much of the impact as possible before the impact energy can be transferred to the passengers. Dead car owners pay no car payments, afterall. :eek2: As far as why I emphasize longevity in an engine that wouldn't see more than a couple thousand miles a year, well... Aside from the daily driver idea (which it would be ideal for in terms of longevity, not necessarily the ideal vehicle overall to use based on the aforementioned reason(s)) having something last as long as possible is always a good idea, providing you wish to pass it along to relatives once you die, or the idea that your money was well spent, or even the idea that you won't have to worry about it for a very long time. I suppose much of it is preference really. Other cams can last long too, as long as they're not too aggressive, and mild-moderate roller cams are actually the best to use on pretty much anything for obvious reason (less friction=more power, better mileage, longer life, etc.). So if you never intend on it being a daily driver and just to have fun, then sure, why not? Put in a beefier cam and get yourself a nice lopey idle, along with 10-15 more numbers. Nothing wrong with that either. I enjoy presenting alternative points of view for educational purposes and maybe a bit of shock value as well. I hope that answers your question. Gary
The rear gears are 3.73 gears. it seems like the only limiting factor right now for a cam choice is intake and that I need to port the heads when they are off. Will gasket matching work just fine? the only thing I didnt like about 284 cam was the lift its the same on intake and exhaust. To me a split lift and split duration cam works better on the street. right now its between the 212, level 4, and the 413 cam. Im guessing anything other than the 212 will require a TA intake. Also whats the part number for the cam saver lifters?
I think you can take one step past the 212 cam but I would get a roller cam and forget about flat tappet cams. Why put a cam in there and worry about a lobe going flat. Sure it will cost more but you can make better use of camshaft profiles and will beat the other cams mentioned. Regular oil just does not have the additives to work well and you will have to use more expensive oil or buy the ZZDP at each oil change. BTW, the 413 cam is ground on a 113 lsa for the 350 engine. The comp cam thumper cams suck. Everyone uses the 212 cam because it is the safe cam to use on a relatively stock engine. I like the Crower cams and the level 4 is nice. The 280 and the 290 cams should work for you since you have a 373 gear 3000 stall would be about right for those. Use a 3200 stall on the 413 cam. Steve knows what he is talking about he at least goes to the track and has done a lot of testing. I have yet to see a time slip from anyone that has run the 212 cam unless Steve did it. But all in all it is best choice for a stock style engine. Use the 413 cam in a roller style at a 113 lsa. You'll notice that power. Go roller, foreword ever backward never.
Gasket matching is NOT porting and unless there significant mismatch will not gain any power. You can LOSE power by making a bulge in the intake track that disturbs the flow. Stick to opening the throat area. Thats the restriction. I've not used a 212 in a 350 so can not comment on it's performance. I have used a 212 in a 455 and it did not work well there. Although as I've said many times a 350 and a 455 draw air in completely differently due to the bore/stroke differences.
