I think you are missing the point just a bit. Making power simply requires an understanding of how to do it and following a plan that cannot fail. It has very little to do with technology or aftermarket support. Any skilled builder can make decent power from any platform. You don't see more aftermarket support for these because it isn't a platform forecasted for much profit. Not many Co's are willing to carry the costs from R&D through production and then warehouse parts to sneak a few sales a month, that's bad business. If things don't exist in the aftermarket you simply have to step up to custom and/or alter some simple machining specs. If you are looking for bolt on convenience one "stage" at a time, this probably isn't the platform for you...yet. The sbb has been well proven to handle abuse, the top end can flow some air. Not rocket science here... There really isn't any disadvantage from other more modern platforms, you just need to decide what you want to do with it. Save up some clams and deal with "the big rocks first". Incorporate what else is needed to support the overall goal. Add on parts don't really "add on" power, they factor in somewhere to the overall formula... Make better sense? Good luck with your project, long live Buick.
What slows down your car even more on the street 30 mph+ is a transmission that will take twice the power to turn. I've seen this myself, and I know what I'm talking about. To your text in bold, you're wrong Derek. The ST300 and PG tranny (the big block/heavier duty one) only took 18 hp to turn, vs 36 for the TH350. That's double. By simply using the ST300, it's like strapping on a free 18 hp, and for a stock engine, that's noticeable. I'm sure the numbers vary as Larry suggested earlier, depending on the power running through it and at varying RPMs. I suppose everyone's experiences are different depending on how they drive/use their car. How much do you know about the ST300 besides the 'crappy gearing'? Did you know it multiplies the torque both mechanically and hydraulically better than the other transmissions? I can tell by the responses here than no one has ever had any real power in front of it... My older Buicks used to spin the tires with the ST300 no problem, so there goes your pulling out into traffic theory. The '70 455 would burn rubber from a rolling start of 30 mph using it. My experiences with this transmission apparently differs greatly from others. Just MY opinion here, with no smug attitude when someone agrees with me. Dr. Evil: Use what you want, matters not to me--though let me know if you want to part with that crappy turd of a transmission. Should be able to get it pretty cheap eh? :Brow:
It went from camshafts to me saying it could have such and such (flywheel) power, which started a conversation about the differences between net and gross and the confusion that ensued. I think it's pretty much cleared up now, but it's gone on to transmissions and how much power they take off the engine, which is still semi-relevant to the thread (or at least the direction it's seemed to have taken now). There's some on this website that are familiar with them, but they're mostly in the Nailhead section. Most others don't know as much about them behind the next generation of Buicks, other than the 300/340 mid'ish 60's cars. In 1968, the only options for automatic transmissions were the ST300 and ST400. My Skylark and Lesabre both came with the ST300. I had the Skylark first, then later the Lesabre. Before getting the Lesabre, I done some work to the Skylark to improve it (it had a 1970 350-2 when I got it, but came originally with a 350-4), one of the things was to 'upgrade' to the TH375. My thinking was similar to what you see here in this thread by others who think it's a bad transmission, figuring I'd get better performance out of the 3 speed transmission. I did--in 1st gear. After that, not so much (as stated previously). After getting the Lesabre and regretting my TH375 decision, I chose to keep the original ST300 in the Lesabre. I have driven many, many cars, and I can attest that I have never felt as good of a passing gear as that ST300 with a properly functioning detent solenoid. Other 3 speed trannys downshift into 2nd to pass, but the ST300 downshifts into low much the same way, but revs higher since the low band gearing on it is in-between 1st and 2nd on a 3 speed tranny. The Lesabre would upshift automatically at over 80 mph with a 2.93 gear! The car was an anomaly. It was way faster than it should have been, and really made that 350-4 (and later the 455's) shine. Needless to say, a wide powerband is needed to take advantage of the ST300's strengths. When a person is used to higher powered cars with tighter gearing and multiple geared transmissions, the ST300 is going to feel---strange. It utilizes the strengths of the engine's wide powerband to work hand in hand with the 'crappy' gearing and enhanced torque multiplication. It won't feel jerky or rough but you'll be moving along fast before you know it. Cars with racing gears and multi geared transmissions can fool the 'butt dyno' into thinking the car has more than it actually does. Instead of a much higher stall, I'd recommend using one of those 2000 heavy duty stalls that maximized hydraulic multiplication on an ST300, and a cam with a super wide powerband. Any power lost from using a wider powerband would easily be compensated by the ST300's innate ease on the engine's power. I suppose it takes the right gearing and combination of parts to make one shine? Everyone has their preferences, and I'm not going to bash anyone for wanting this over that. I'd like to see others give the pros and cons of things like this, so that the reader can make his/her own decision without too much bias getting in the way.
It make take less power to turn the 2 speed but torque multiplication thru the 2.52 gear first vs the 1.76 pg first has got to count for improved 60ft times
Ok Gary, you're right. That's why they still put those 2 transmissions in todays hot cars because they are SO great! No wait, they use 6 speeds(some are even 8 speed transmissions now!) now with even more gearing to keep the power band in the sweet spot. If your engine is sensitive to 18 HP, ITS TIME FOR A DIFFERENT ENGINE.(period!) Or at least build the engine to be a different engine after built. If you want to make up the "18" HP then swap in manual steering because power steering is supposed to eat up 5-15 RWHP!!!(depending where in the RPM range and if the steering wheel is being turned) Removing the weight of A/C and not using it will save around 5 HP and about 30 to 50 lbs. Under drive pulleys are good for about 5 RWHP as well. So as you can see if you're using an engine that needs to be replaced because it bogs down from a trans that uses "18" more HP there are ways to gain it back. But I would suggest if that is the case, replace the engine because it is a turd if "18" more HP makes it bog above 30 MPH. In your ST300 to TH375 example you lost more like 26 HP going to a light duty basically a TH400. Your scenario doesn't factor this in and you just generalize that the TH350 will be just as bad. The TH350 uses about 8 HP less than the TH375/TH400 according to the numbers posted, PLUS it has a slightly better 1st gear ratio than a TH375/TH400 1st gear ratio as well as a better 2nd gear ratio which is totally neglected in your biased generalized comparison. With the 383 and the factory powerglide before the 383 killed it the car was slower in the 60 ft times and the mph were lower than when I switched to the 700R4 that is in the car now. But that engine isn't sensitive to a measly "18" HP though and loved the extra gearing. Hmmm, maybe there is something to the extra gearing after all, I wonder if the OEMs will ever catch on to this? o No: :laugh: Or are they making a mistake not using antiquated technology from the early 60s? uzzled: Gary, if you love the ST300, more power to you. But in my personal opinion I wouldn't waste my time or $$ with one, so I will agree to disagree with you about the ST300. Derek
My experience with them is quite positive, yes. Better than with any of the others. Sorry this upsets you so. I'll gladly buy any working ST300's you have lying around that you tossed to the side after having spent countless hours using them to discover how poorly they perform... Don't confuse the ST300 with the weaker PG that your 383 burnt up that was designed for in-line 6's. My '70 455 couldn't harm the ST300 in a heavy Lesabre--and I was anything but gentle with it. It also felt much stronger with the ST300 than it did in front of the TH400 (I've had more Buicks than these two). I guess those static numbers should be converted into percentages? Even so, if 18 or 26 hp means nothing, then why do people use aftermarket parts that can often add even less than these numbers? It's also funny that you believe 8 hp difference between the two 3 speed transmissions is worth noting, but engines sensitive to 18 or even 26 hp warrant an entirely different engine. I'll give you an "E" for effort on your creativity, but your embellishments are all over the place. There are pros and cons to using anything.
Maybe not, but in the right car with a SP converter it is easily an equal of a 350 or 400. In my 65 Skylark GS with a 3.42 gear, I can pull 2.10 60 fts all day long on whitewall street radials. The converter puts the nailhead right in the torque curve, the high first gear doesn't overpower the tires, and the low parasitic loss lets the engine work. 2.10 doesn't sound impressive, but take a look at the PSMCDR spreadsheet. That's better than many 13 second cars with 40-50 more RWHP and high 3 or 4 series gears. The ST300 is far from a turd.
Hey Rhett, I was wondering if you would chime in. I would like to see a comparison with your newly built 425 NH with the ST300 vs. a ST400 3 speed trans both using drag radials as to not bias the comparison one way or the other. I can see using street tires and the torque of a NH you would want something that hits WAY softer to get that torque to the ground without spinning the tires. You did a great job for a stock type racer how you run your car, and I don't want to take that away from you. But for a non-stock type racing I don't think the ST300 is the best choice to get the best ET or 60 ft time. With the powerglide and drag radials I went from 2.3s to 1.9s with the 700R4 swap. Derek
i talked with an old buick drag racer. he told me he would use the 2-speed sp when the track he was going to be not as good for hooking up.the 2-speed was 1 tenth slower et but would mph hgher at 1-mph then the 3-speed sp. i have no reason not to believe him.
Why in the heck would you stick a 383 in front of a ST300 or a power glide. Well yeah it would be slower than the 700 trans, the gearing is different.
Because that was what was in the car when I bought it(283 2bbl with a powerglide) and wanted to see what a powerglide could handle before I upgraded it. You could almost hear the thing scream in agony when the throttle was wide opened. :eek2: Not only was the 60 ft time faster with the 700R4, the MPH went from 98 to 102!! But to be fair the factory light duty powerglide factory installed before I was born never had a chance behind the 383. Perhaps it would of had a better chance of survival if it was a BB powerglide with the 1.76:1 first gear vs. the lighter duty one with a 1.83:1 first gear. Blew first gear and reverse out at Lapeer Dragway running the QM, test and tuning. Didn't know it broke until I went to back out. Fortunately it still had 2nd gear and I was able to drive it home on its own power, but it did NOT like moving from a dead stop, but smoothed right out when it went into 2nd gear. Good times!!! Drove my '64 Skylark with the ST300 and sbb 300 2bbl before I owned it, boy was that thing a slug out of the hole! Not as great as Gary explains it either after moving, but to be fair he had 50 more cubes in the car he was driving. I needed to borrow a car for a week and my brother's friend lent me the '64, I was NOT impressed. That guy blew up the trans(yes the ST300) and the car sat until the engine locked up and was traded to my brother for a genuine imitation Les Paul electric guitar. My brother installed a sbc 283 and powerglide engine and trans out of a '67 Chevelle before I bought it and I ran 5 different sbc engines in it. I could have the engine out and a different one dropped in it in about 3 hours by myself. Dam, the weather needs to cool down so I can get away from in front of this confuser!!! LOL! Should have some relief tomorrow, but they were only calling for 83* today, not the 90* it actually was before it started raining!! With the dew point at 73* makes for a muggy mofo out there!!! Derek
Don't give me that you guys love to sit here all ** night seeing who can come out on top with your bull. lol. I would have tried the trans too if I had it just wanted to bust you a little. But what would it have done if you would have had it upgraded to handle the power and put in a nice stall in it with a gear. Spin that engine to 6500 do about 80 out of low lol. hey you never know. At least you could push start it, My 56 Chevy with a power glide could be push started unless it was a different trans but it was a two speed.
Usually the auto transmissions that I know about that can be push started are the ones that have a rear pump. You're talking about the older 2 speed trans that was cast iron, the "HEAVY" powerglide IIRC. Actually this has turned out to be a decent discussion for a change with no one taking it personal and retaliating with a personal attacks(well not as bad anyway) when someone else disagrees with them. Gotta love that. :TU: Derek
This is pretty much the ONLY thing the ST300 lacks, but that wasn't even the point of your bashing. Backpedal out of it now that someone else comes in defending the transmission. lol We weren't talking about hot racing anyway (at least not me), but for stock/street applications, where the ST300 shines. Come on Derek. Put the booze away and clear your mind. :laugh: You know I luv ya bro. We all have good input and information to share, no need to butt heads. Besides, I think the popcorn vendor is all sold out.
With my experience, it was around 5200ish RPM @80ish in low with the 2.93 gear and 15" tires. A little something not many people know (at least anyone who's never used one with an engine that has good power) about the ST300, is when it takes off, the engine stalls higher into a decent torque range and lets it pull out of the hole that way. It's a smooth operator, and pulls pretty good even from a dead stop to 20-30 mph, where it outperforms the other transmissions in that range. Kick-down passing is stupid good with that trans, and you can't beat the top end. My brother's Mopar 383-4 with his 3 speed tranny would pull right away from the Lesabre from a dead stop, until the Lesabre got moving. Racing side-by-side down the road at a 30 mph rolling start, we'd stay neck and neck all the way to 120 mph when we both let out of it. His 383 was no doubt more powerful engine wise, but the differences in transmissions told the story on top end performance. I'd have to say that the ST300 was one of the main reasons the Lesabre with the 350-4 why it performed as well as it did in that larger car. Fun times. Let this be a testament and reference to what the ST300 can do, and its limitations/strengths.
You come on Gary and STOP the personal attacks! Who's the one with the "booze"? Probably the one spouting off with the personal attacks! STOP before you get out of hand AGAIN. This discussion was going good, what's wrong, are you taking it personal because I disagree with you? Are you but hurt because I called your beloved SuperTurd300 a turd? Well, GET OVER IT. Did I at any time directly attack you personally? No, unless you think it is an attack saying you love the SuperTurd300, did that offend you to make you attack me? Get your head out of your a$$ and STOP it! My opinion is the same, the ST300 is a big fat TURD!!! It sucks as a street trans and a strip trans. No back peddling here! I followed along with Rhett's car in DaNailhead section and was being respectful, try it some time maybe people with reciprocate! If you still think I was back peddling, read the reply to Fox's den about when I drove a car with one in it for a week. If its such a great trans, why isn't it still used today? Its not like it would be overly expensive for the OEMs to mass produce. They even have the ability to add in an O/D in that turd, but they have NOT because its obsolete junk and a novelty at best now to keep one in service. Derek
Let's just clear this up now once and for all for the record. When someone comes in initiating personal attacks and slander and then the other person retaliates, we can't exactly call it 'taking it personal when a simple disagreement takes place'. More exaggerations intended to make it look like I'm the bad guy to the casual reader who may not know the whole story. Stop this nonsense and lets all just get along. You (and others) can bust my balls and I'll just laugh right along with you, but don't be upset when Gary Farmer does a better job at busting yours right back. :moonu: :laugh:
Everything you accuse me of can be applied to your own posts, Derek. There's no personal attacks going on here, by either one of us. It's not used today like the Buick 350 isn't used today. Why keep comparing old tech with new tech? If it's junk then so is the rest of the whole reason this entire website is even in existence (hint: we specialize in old junk) It's just a transmission, and I wanted to point out the pros and cons, while all you have is fecal matter comments on anything outside of your own biased point of view. You are anything but respectful replying to my posts. You apparently have some kind of score to settle or at the very least a chip on your shoulder. I can handle bullies just fine, and they don't know how to take it other than cry when their bs gets turned back on them.
This post is better and should of been your answer to my dislike of the SuperTurd300, NOT personally attacking me! I hope we can discuss cars and car parts in the future without the, hate to write it again, personal attacks. Attack my cars, attack my opinion stating why you like your opinion better is fine and can lead to a healthy discussion. But the above mentioned needs to stop. I welcome you to call me out if you think I am ever personally attacking you, to tell me to STOP as well. This has got to stop here. I'm not trying to sell anything when I state my opinion and I don't think you are either, so when I say I will agree to disagree please reciprocate that. Derek
