Anyone running The GSCA Pop Mech cam in thier 455?

Jim,

Well, I will be keeping track of everything I spend as I do it. I'll let you know where it comes in at. I think it's possible, but you have the experience of course. Maybe without the line bore and decking it.
The guy I was talking about had a 455 that was put together with unported iron heads, a mild cam, etc. He tried ported manifolds because headers weren't going to fit his car (apollo). Didn't do much of anything! He told me that he just wanted a car that would be pretty fast to show all the chevy guys at work what Buick power was all about, and to drive with his son and wife to get ice cream on Saturdays, etc. Maybe a little track time here and there. He wanted something that would lauch him good. It was suggested to use the combo you often talk about, with the 290-08H and alum heads. The only thing is, the guy was a little freaked about the budget, which I can understand completely. My point wasn't that he wouldn't be happy with that setup- more that it was a lot of money to acheive what he wanted, especially considering the weight of his car.

I absolutely and totally agree! It's which price you want to pay- for ported heads, or give up a little driveability (in my opinion, not very much). Since I just can't justify the cost right now, I will most likely end up going with the 107 type combo. My priorities are in this order: 1. Must be minimal in cost 2. Must be able to use 93 octane. 3. must run 11.50-12.50 in a '69 full interior car.
The car I was talking about in my last post would require very little, in my opinion, to be a very liveable daily driver. I would add roller rockers, for dependability. The rockers seem to be the only problem area for the motor. From what I understand, the original owner was driving this car daily before, with no problems. My mom has driven it to work before. Part of that dependability is that it's just a really well sorted out car. It has been together for many years, and my dad is very good at tuning the combo in.
Since you're here (how many times have you heard that? :grin: ) I have a question for you: Do you think that I could run 93 octane in a 11.66:1 motor, with a Poston 112 cam (320, 322 adv. 112 center) with .035 quench (flat tops, 7cc valve reliefs, .005" out of the hole, .040 gasket). This is assuming the timing is right on and I have a great cooling sytem. I have calculate the dynamic compression to be 7.68:1 with 4 degrees advance on the cam. Just wondered what your impression was, if it could be possible.

 

Rick,
If you look at the cost you have in that rebuilt stocker, consider this:
add another $300 or so for forged pistons. You would need a cam anyway, so no added cost there. Headers- add $350 or so. You're still in the 4K or less range for a mid-low 12 second 107 combo. In fact, you wouldn't need the forged pistons. The car I mentioned before is shifted at 5600 consistantly. Use a stock intake with some porting and a 1 inch spacer (which can be made at home with a router for $0 out of scrap plywood). These are supposed to flow as well as a B4B anyway! I would add an msd setup. The stock Q-jet could be worked over (it can be made to idle fairly low with a little work). Consider what it would cost to build the same power using ported or aluminum heads, and you're way ahead of the game.
With the 290-08H combo, you still need a good 3500 stall converter. You also still need a fairly tall rear end gear. The rest of the setup is also very similar between the two.
What you would give up is the ability to run power brakes, and a smoother idle. Is that worth $4-6K to you? No way, in my opinion.
I don't consider this a compromised engine. Just a more cost effective way to make the power I want. It should last a very long time, with basic good machining, and watching how high you spin it.
Just my opinion of course. I think more needs to be said about the cheaper combinations. It would get more people, especially younger people like me (I'm 28), into old Buicks if they thought they could afford them.

 

I have one of the 4k motors that Jim was referring to. I wanted a good, long lasting 12 sec mostly street car that I can run all accessories on without any crap. I spent about 4k to have a local machine shop build the 455. They screwed it up so bad that it will cost me 6k for Jim to get it like I wanted. My point is, if you want budget and don't care about what it will run and for how long, then you can build cheaper and take your chances. But I am convinced that if you want want i do, you will have to spend at least 5-6k to get it. and I am talking about a 12 sec motor that will have a long, long life without the worry of it coming apart when I lean on it. And being totally streetable and gauranteed by the builder to meet all these demands. If I spent all the money I now will have in this motor with Jim initially, I would have one helluva motor and still have cash leftover. Live and learn. Brian

 

Brian,
Maybe the problem isn't the cost of the machine work, it's who did it the first time. I don't think being budget conscious necessarily means an unreliable motor. To me, it means having good machine shop work done to my specs at a reliable shop, and careful assembly- doing as much work myself as possible.
The difference in price will not be made up in machine work anyway. it will be made up in aluminum heads and port work. That is A LOT of money! I don't plan to cheap out on the bottom end. I will be 0 decking it, with forged pistons, reconditioned rods, ARP bolts, main and head studs (depending on compression I run whether I need the head studs).
I guess that the difference is I will give up a little streetability (none that matters to me) and I will be the one responsible for making the motor right (no guarantee).
I guess we will have to see. Putting it together myself is a lot of the fun for me.
Heck, I build my own stereo equipment too. I just like to see how stuff works!

 

The guy that originally did my motor does all the machine work and assembly in house. From what i have seen and been told from Jim, therewasn't one single thing done right on this motor. From the head work to the main studs, there was an issue with everything. I know Jim W is very busy, but maybe if he gets a chance he can post some of the things he found. it wasn't pretty! I do almost everything myself around on my cars, and have done several small& big block chevy's, but I will have to admit that I don't have the patience to get the tolerances right that are so critical on BBB's. I want this one to last and last and last.............

:beer Brian

 

Just a point of correction....Rick, as usual you need to be corrected! I did not sell you a good, used tow cam as you stated. I sold you a brand new, still in the (beat up) box, excellant tow cam. It may have been hanging around my garage for a few years, but it's not used. SHEEESH!! ou:

 

I agree with you on that. I would like to post articles in the Build Sheet regarding different combos that won't break the bank. It was the combo low budget what I was looking for as the race motor is taking all the cash. Just throwing out a cheap combo here. I will post the break down once the engine is complete. Then from there people can either switch or add and get a pretty close estimate. As with the power brakes...well with the big car and towing without them I would only get to drive the car once, before crashing it from overloading the breaks:gt:

And Dougy Poo:spank: I should have known better to comment without your 2 cents added. I thought that was a slightly used cam, oh well I guess this means you will be jacking up the price? It did have some surface rust I know you can never resist on coments, but for once how about a positive one towards the topic. Ahh that's ok, either way I'm still gonna put you on the trailer at Norwalk:moonu:

Rick :grin: :grin: :grin:

 

KEEP DREAMING!:moonu:

 

Do I smell a bet here or are you...
:laugh: :laugh:

 

Doug and Rick,
I'll hold on to my bettin money til the day of the race.
I'll have to see your faces and attitudes in the staging lanes before I put my money down,right now it's a 50-50 bet!:laugh:

 

:beer

 

Oh, but what about this guy...doesn't he own a wagon:Brow:

 

Whoa!!! It still looks like a 50-50 bet from the staging lanes of???? Cecil ? I presume??:laugh: :laugh:
Nice picture of you guys:TU:

 

LOL... good pictures.

I will be documenting my whole restoration and motor building on my website as I go. This will include a breakdown on all the costs, and performance when it's all tuned it.
Right now I'm waiting for $$ as usual.
I would love to see other people's low $ combos that work. I tried to start a thread before, but all I seemed to get were responses saying you can't build a good motor for less than $XXXX :gt: The point was cheap combos, not cheaping out on machine work. Oh well, I tried!

 

Keep track of the hours, too. In a sense this is the same as cost.

-Bob Cunningham

 

Yeah, but then everyone would see how slow I am! :sleep:

 

Good thread guys. The cost of doing the BBB is the main reason some people go to BBC in these cars. Ugh.
If we can get some lower cost options that work, maybe more guys and gals would keep a BBB or SBB in a Buick.
The chevy has been thru this learning curve. I know there is a lot more equipment available for the Buicks than ever before and that is great. We just have to keep the ball rolling if we can. We are just a small number of people compared to the Chevy contingent and that makes all the difference. Mike D.

 

Low Budget short block

Steve,

11.6 to 1 on pump gas.. with iron heads?

EEEK.. sounds like a prescription for holes in the pistons to me.

You will find there is not a tremendous difference, with the right cam timing, for a street engine, if you trim it back to 10-1. But without that, and with a really long cam like you want to run, then you will have a component mismatch..

That is an area we have not even begun to touch on yet.



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Ok guys..

Out of curiousity, and not to be confused with what we build here on a regular basis, I did a quick parts/machine work estimate for a 455.

This is the bare minimum you should be doing.

And there is no such thing as a "good" 30 year old Harmonic balancer".

There is.. NO labor

No work on the heads

No timing cover or parts

Nothing done to carbs, ignition system, water pumps, flexplate, engine fasteners, ect..

So yes, I you had a good set of heads, I will have to say that you could do a stock buildup for right around 4K..

This is not a zero deck block.. that opens a whole "nuther can of worms".

I wouild highly recommend that you don't skip anything outlined here..

Now, when you add a much better block cleanup, zero decking and re-fitting the engine, head rebuild work/porting and parts, ingition system stuff, valve covers, roller rockers, new/better flexplates, ect ect.. the price shoots right up to what we build as a Level One engine, and they are typcially between 6-8K, dyno tested ready to go.. depending on how many parts/cores the customer provides, and how many dress up or durability options they chose.

That engine, is a 450-500 HP motor here, depending on how much head work/how big a cam, or some combo of both.

You want 500+ on pump gas, the price takes another leap..

Remember, never enough money/time to do it right... always enought to do it over...

 

Jim,
Does the normal dynamic compression ratio even help at all with that type of combo? It would be in the same range as a 10.25:1 290-08h type motor.
Is there something else I'm not thinking of?
Thanks for the breakdown on the short block. Something to think about.

 

Steve,

I have more hands on real world experience than I do with the DCR theories, and dyno sims..

IN fact, I just bought my first dyno sim program, should be in today..

Based on my actual experiences..

Lets take a 11.-1 464.. 260/266 duration cam.. on a 110 LC.. Aluminum heads..

ON the dyno, on race fuel, motor made nice, repeatable HP numbers..

around 625..

Switching over to 92 octane pump gas, the power fell off about 12 HP, meaning it was just going into the first stages of detonation.

Most of us consider 10.75, regardless of cam, to be the max for an aluminum head engine.

10-0 on iron..

JW