482, 494, or 500 plus C.I

Discussion in 'Race 400/430/455' started by bigdawg70, Apr 17, 2014.

  1. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    Probably for a Dart or Bow Tie block for the 440. The Bow tie block has been used to make 482 cid sbc stroker before with a 4.250" bore and a 4.250" stroke!

    The one I'm doing is a factory filled up to the bottom of the water pump holes sbc 400 block that I converted the 3 center caps to billet splayed caps with a halo girdle. The crank is an ebay 4.00" stroke made in Taiwan 4340 forged, internal balanced and heat treated $375 shipped crank so we couldn't really turn that deal down to go with a shorter stroke. It looks and measured surprisingly well for where its from, looks identical to an Eagle crank! The pistons are JE SRP 4032 forged 15cc reverse dome with a 1.00" compression height and H-beam 4340 Eagle H-beam stroker clearanced rods. The crank came with a 1900 gram bob weight, we ended up with 1640 grams and a lot of crank drilling to balance it.

    He is going to buy the FAST Easy EFI 2.0 for this engine that's why the top end of the engine will be upgraded in the future, he's getting the 2.0 so he can upgrade.(the other one is only rated for up to 600 HP the 2.0 is rated for up to 1200 HP)

    I was looking at the AFR heads that flow 350 CFM on the intake that I was going to recommend when he is ready to upgrade if they offer them in 68-72cc chambers. When he does upgrade the compression ratio is going to be lowered so he can run pump gas, with the 64cc chamber Vortec heads he'll be at 12:1 and will have to run a race gas mix for now.

    Yeah I told him he would probably run out of air by about 4,800 RPM(LOL) with the cam and heads, cam is a 501" 501" lift 244* 244* @ 050" duration.

    Yes very cheap compared to Buick, its ok though because its going into a tube chassis Chevy S-10.

  2. 8ad-f85

    8ad-f85 Well-Known Member

    Need a raised cam block to go more than 4.000 stroke.
    It's hard enough to find rods that clear the cam at 4.0.
    Tell him to shelf that cam and put more in. :cool:
    Vortec heads have supported as much as 700hp.
  3. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    Its a factory block so not a raised cam. Could get more stroke than 4.00" stroke in a stock block with smaller rod journal crank with smaller diameter crank throws to clear the pistons but the rod ratio starts to get really crappy. The smaller journal rods would clear a small base circle cam that would be needed, but all the BS needed to make it work isn't worth it IMO. A raised cam raised deck block that can handle a 4.250" bore and a 4.250" stroke, now you're talking!

    Tried to get him to spring for a better cam but that would mean better springs better lifters better push rods better rocker arms....... where does it end? All the parts are sitting there waiting for some better weather to bolt it together except for the FAST EZ EFI 2.0 that he still needs to purchase. After he gets the engine running in the thing and finds all the weak links from the massive low end torque this thing is going to make and he gets use to the power and is ready for more and his wallet heals from all the other $$ that's going into this thing he will upgrade the top end to al. heads, roller cam, roller rockers.........and everything else to upgrade the engine.(man that was a lot of ands!) This is going to be a 4 wheel drive BIG tire vehicle so its going to want a lot of torque to get it moving.

    For Vortec heads to "support 700 HP" some sort of power adder would be needed with the cubes even with 15cc reverse dome pistons the small 64cc chambers of the Vortec heads the C/R is going to be 12:1. With 12:1 the only power added option would be N02, with the 4032 forged pistons you don't want more than a 150 HP shot or even if it could be boosted 5 PSI would be max. After the upgrade he'll have 700+ HP N/A with 1:1 less compression because he doesn't want to deal with any power adders and race gas afterwards.

  4. 8ad-f85

    8ad-f85 Well-Known Member

    I know this isn't the 'Bullet or a Chivvy board...or SMC :).

    At least one near 700hp Vortec build is documented over on Speedtalk. Dyno and backed up with track times.
    That one might have 50* seats. I've heard of others.
    The port itself isn't that far off of certain Bowties. The chambers are nicely unshrouded.
    I do a fair amount of smc :) heads. I've ported in various orders of mods to see what affects what.
    Basically, the port can be in finished shape for 300+ cfm but only flow 260...until the chambers are worked on. Obviously it's about the whole she-bang.

    I forget on the Vortecs if +.100 or .200 valves work out to the right height. Springs are really cheap still. There's some drop in beehives, too.
    Valves are cheap. Avoid Manley or Milodon, they work harden and embrittle.
    If they make contact with a piston I'd rather see them bend and cause misfire than beat the cylinder to death when they come apart. When.

    I did one import sbc set that was mislocated in the mill from the slanty eyed bastards. It's cubed somewhat correctly but the cast openings are in the wrong place. :rolleyes:
    The deck pins are in the wrong place, too...resulting in the ports being raised. (not visually, but how it sits on the engine)
    True position of any feature away from the deck is inconsistent. I don't think they accounted for that on more than any one plane at a time.
    Needs serious spacers (.350") or a custom intake and slip collar distributor to use. For now they are door stops.
    The ports go over 330 cfm and are far from maxed. They also pour @ 235cc's (?). Oops.

    The 2" rods don't always offer more room, sometimes they are the same rod bored smaller. Callies Ultralights come to mind for the 4" crank. They are profiled correctly, if they're the ones I'm thinking of.

    I've used a couple 260-270* @ .050" flat tappet cams in 406's. 105* sep., a 1.6 rocker gives a bit over .600" lift. Circle track cam, reduced base circle available. $85 retail.
    Springs are still cheap, so are edm lifters. Budget build.
    They're capable of 650 hp before the hp peak drops like a rock. Streetable CR, pump gas OK.
    A magazine duplicate (after the build) showed 680 hp....magazine hp :)
    If you have enough head the rod ratio is no big deal. I'd rather see faster avg. piston speed. I don't think you are trying to get it to hang on past the power peak.

    I would personally go with a 3.875 crank, but sometimes you gotta work with what the customer wants.
    There's more rod choices, so it's potentially less expensive. You can always rev it up higher.
    I also think it's more practical to just use a different platform at some point.
    If you got one of those SGI cranks, look it over closely. I've had a couple sets of their rods in my hands...sent back.
    Some of those sources are selling seconds. You probably already know that though.

    Sounds fun!
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2015
  5. gmcgruther

    gmcgruther Well-Known Member

    Derek, I only did the billet mains like you did (1st one was mildon and the second one was oliver) you really didn't need to fill the block that far, only to the bottom of soft plugs and where the large water ports are where the heads sit, you machine them to screw in alien head screws and drill to 3/8" to 1/2" to which you desire. this makes the deck very strong. I never ran a girdle in a sbc yet and has been very successful at 748 hp naturally aspirated and 1100+ hp on nitrous. The latest consultant 421 will be 750-780 hp with AFR's 235 cnc heads and lunati part # 50177SB6 .669 on the intake and .633 on the exhaust. A Super Victory JR. Super intake, a too small 1050 Dominator Holley, he picked up the new Nitrous Express billet double cross plate two stage capable of 800+ hp on both stages ;) This little mighty mouse will be a true test of Factory Cast Iron GM block :( You did good for basic E-bay stuff ;) I like shopping for cheap but you gotta pay attention to the parts .
  6. gmcgruther

    gmcgruther Well-Known Member

    85ad, why spend almost two g's on porting and the other bs to do what I can buy for $1600? And AFR will Cnc them to your engine! That's included. Vortec heads are ok but the will never compare to AFR 235's by far. Matter of fact look at the port relation between both of them? The AFR's are not raised port heads at all and take everything from a standard 23 degree head, unlike the vortec head :( Derek is gonna realize the 434 is a low end grunt machine, not so much mid to up rpm range. That's why I stick with a 421-422 range, best of both worlds, no matter what you do. One of the Big car magazine's did a article on the very same engine I consulted on and that engine made 750-780 hp with ease with the vary same parts he used! The Torque was 600-635 ;) the article said something about nitrous but didn't read it.
  7. gmcgruther

    gmcgruther Well-Known Member

    Derek, find out what kit the 434 is from, I have the Scat , Howards, Eagles, and many others catalogs of stroker kits. I can tell you anything you need to know about it.
  8. 8ad-f85

    8ad-f85 Well-Known Member

    OK, I'll bite...
    2g's? Umm..I don't pay people to port heads. If your already starting with the castings it shouldn't take you a 40 hr week to do those. $1000 or more is OK for less than a week, right? (savings)
    One supplier will give you a CNC ported head for $185/head more each. I don't use them often, nor do I recommend them. If you figure out who they are, set up a wholesale account.
    AFR 235's can definitely go further than Vortecs.
    I can think of 1600 reasons to use vortecs in the described build.
    AFR is one of the few CNC mass market heads with decent CNC'd results. Many cannot match a well done set of hand ported heads. They have to stay conservative or risk scrap.
    Either way, it's $$ and the consumer trusts CNC'd stuff over a potential fancy aluminum sprinkler system.
    Std sbc intake gasket is 1.230" x 1.990". AFR235 uses a 1206 gasket, 1.310" x 2.180". It is raised nearly .200". They also require an offset intake rocker. Not std. sbc.

    I'm not ready to believe a production 400 block is holding up to the claimed power levels. It must be a very special block.

    My apologies to the board for continuing on sbc's in this thread.
  9. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    Gary, I didn't buy a kit, all the parts were sourced separate that's how good I am. LOL I don't need to know about some one else's stroker kit the Derek stroker kit is from the catalog in my head and is already balanced ready to install.(thanks anyway)

  10. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    Wasn't really thinking about using the 2.00" rod journal stuff with a more than 4.00" stroke in a factory block, was thinking more of the Asian aftermarket type rods. A Mitsubishi rod journal is 1.777" I think that would offer plenty of cam clearance for more than a 4.00" stroke, but would probably use a Nissan rod under 6.00" with a 1.888" journal size. Could even use the $375 4340 Taiwan crank and have it offset ground to 4.200" for another $300. Custom without the huge custom price except for the pistons that would need the small wrist pin that one of the rods have, custom$!! I don't think another .200" of stroke would be worth all the hassle and extra $$ though, BUT it would be a 455.6 cid after doing that though.

    The Eagle rods were not "seconds" nor were the JE SRP pistons. The rods are clearanced for a 4.00" stroke in a factory block, the clearancing cuts right into the bolts on one side so you don't want to mix the bolts up. LOL

    The cam you mentioned for $85 then add $100 for lifters, $200 for valves $100 to $200 for springs and about $150 to install screw in studs vs. $75 for the slightly used already broke in cam and lifters to clear off my shelf and the $100 S/S valve kit from competition products that includes standard length sbc valves, Z28 valve springs, locks, retainers and seals. So $175 vs. $535 to make an $85 cam work with the Vortec heads that will be upgraded in a season or 2. Hmmmmm, naw I think we'll stick to the plan but thanks anyway. Did I mention he still needs to purchase the FAST EZ EFI 2.0, there's another couple grand$, the long travel shocks aren't cheap either that still needs to be bought. I'm ok with him going this way because I get paid again to upgrade it. (nyuck nyuck nyuck) LOL

    Yeah at the time I didn't find a 3.875" crank when I searched for cranks for the price of the one we ended up getting($375 shipped for a heat treated 4340 forged sbc 400 mains 4.00" stroke crank). Never tried the Star Galaxy parts, good to know(thanks) that they're seconds I probably won't be trying them now, besides there are enough firsts that are less expensive than them anyway. I have used a whole lot of Speedmaster parts with good success, the guy with the Jeep Cherokee with a 383 in it has their 4032 forged pistons, moly rings and 4340 forged H-beam rods with an Ohio crank 4340 forged crank, he has spun it as fast as 8,500 RPM before I told him to set the rev limiter to 7,500 RPM, no damage occurred though.(actually he turned up the rev limiter to take someone for a lets say a hell ride at the sand dunes, LOL)

  11. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    What are "alien head screws"? Are they space alien heads or just illegal alien heads? LOL Or are you trying to write Allen head screws? Are you talking about the Allen head pipe plug deck kit? Yeah, I tapped the deck and have that kit already installed on the block, makes those around 3/4" maybe 1" holes on the deck a 1/4" I think the size is in the plugs.

    Anyway the block is filled to the bottom of the water pump holes, why bother even filling it if you don't at least go that high? This thing isn't being built to drive a quarter mile at a time, have you ever been to the Silver lake sand dunes in MI? This thing needs to be able to be driven hard for miles at a time! And be able to fly through a mud bog race while being able to drive it home afterwards. He wants this to be a multi purpose type vehicle, hell he might even tie down the suspension and take off the 44" tall tires and put a couple sets of slicks on it to blast it down the QM if he wants?

  12. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    Derek knows this and with 44" tall tires he wants all the low end grunt he can get, but I'm probably going to retard the cam 4* when I install it to kill a little bit of that low end grunt so he maybe can rev it passed 5,000 RPM. I don't think he'll miss that little bit of low end unless one of you tell him, shhhhhh.

  13. moleary

    moleary GOD Bless America

    Subscribed, right?

    Attached Files:

  14. moleary

    moleary GOD Bless America

    Whoa, hang on a minute...

    Attached Files:

  15. 8ad-f85

    8ad-f85 Well-Known Member

    Polite observation...
    I wouldn't know your parts list vs. the shopping list. The valves are close to the same cost no matter the length, and much less if you use the broom sheet pricing. I got lots @ under $4.00(?) each. $2.75 maybe?
    Springs are not $200. The .100 taller installed height ones are $40? Slightly better ones are well under $100. The tool to help with the studs (if needed) is $20 or less. I thought you had a mill, I might be mistaken.
    It would live fine w/o edm lifters.
    I was presenting an option of getting more than you thought likely from an unsuspecting combo with merely a cam swap. You'll still make a lot more torque, and it will hang on much longer.
    Basically it seemed as if you would be spending nearly the same no matter what.
    Watch where the oil holes are if taking that much out of the crank...you probably already know that, but for the sake of other smc builders and of course to contribute to a stroker BBB thread :)

    It does seem unusual to purchase a $2000 fuel system but re-use a cam. He might not "upgrade" heads if he had a 700 hp iron headed engine. You already know the block won't last that long @ 700hp. You said production block, right?
    If you had a ton of time into the head porting you could always "buy" them back by offsetting upgrades.
    Most of the people I deal with are really budget limited, too. And I'm frugal. Pulling a penny from my ass results in copper wire. :)

    I was going to mention the alien bolts too. Good one.

    Forgot to mention that Speedmaster is Procomp. A few years ago they told me their pistons were made by Ross, but I see now the 4032's they have look more like Mahle. They supposedly get the cranks from the same place as Eagle (and Scat?).
    Some of their stuff I'll use, some I won't. Haven't used their crank. You get a pretty good deal at 5 @ a time. Their rods look just like Scats, but you need to watch some stuff real close. They readily admit their studs and fasteners are relatively soft. Some builder's (I'm thinking Ebay types) buy large batches and then heat treat further. Rod bolts stretch in a reasonable torque range. The biggest problem is the quality control. Their company takes the standpoint that there is no problem. They don't seem to have any measuring tools. Most garage builders don't have the capability to inspect properly.
    They rely heavily on the customers doing the engineering work after the fact. I don't know that SGI always sells seconds. Some of the Ebay vendors are using seconds, some are on a re-box (or white box) program.
    The intakes are from the same factory as Professional Products. The part #'s were the same except for the first digit. Several I've seen had that first digit welded on, along with repairs. Prof Prods will make a strong insistence that THEIR intakes are Not the same as Procomp. I get the impression that the Procomps might be seconds. If they fit on the engine, the single planes (once ported) can make some serious power.
  16. 300sbb_overkill

    300sbb_overkill WWG1WGA. MAGA

    Yeah, he wants to upgrade to aluminum heads for the weight savings later and wanted the cheapest option to get it running but thanks for the option. That 292 Magnum isn't that bad of a cam, my brother had the same cam in his '68 full weight Chevelle in the de-stroked 377 cid sbc I built for him with Vortec heads and he was in the high 12s in the QM with it. The used cam has low miles on it, the good part about using it is that it won't need any type of cam break in procedure done with it.

    I do have a mill, not doing the stud change though the heads are getting stock 1.5:1 self centering stamped steel rocker arms. Another reason we don't want a different cam because when the upgrade happens the cam will be a solid roller, we don't want a steep ramp high lift flat tappet that needs high spring pressure to risk sending metal trough the engine from a cam failure.

    I'm not looking to build a 455 sbc(unless someone reading this wants one?) but yeah I know about watching for the oiling holes in the rod journals.

    The factory block will be fine @ 700 N/A HP, I older gentleman I use to know use to run sbc 4 bolt main 400 bocks with a 6-71 blower and would twist the block with around 950 HP. He would get the block line bored every year and would search for a very rare 4 bolt main sbc 400 block while he knew the block he had didn't have much time left. I tried to get him to use a 2 bolt main block converted to splayed 4 bolt I even offered to install the caps for free but he was old school and didn't think that would be better than a factory 4 bolt main. You just can't tell some of those old school guys how to build a better mousetrap. He never filled his blocks and didn't use a halo girdle and never had a failure except for twisting the block from that instant torque. LOL

    The Procomp stuff is good, yeah for the 383 the bolts were upgraded to ARP 8740 bolts, the rods looked greay other than that though, holes were round and straight(even after the new bolts were installed) just had to open up the wrist pin holes a bit on the hone to fit the pins and down the road. I always will use an ARP fastener or better for rods as well as other high stress areas.

    Used a Procomp high rise intake on the 383, it was actually a really nice intake after I re-machined the shoddy machining on the intake mounting surfaces, I check that on every one I get now the air gap imitation one is good. The high rise was actually port matched when it arrived it works really well, but yeah the intake could very well be seconds after getting the one I had to fix.

    Sorry for the sbc tangent, this will be my last post on the subject so no more questions please unless there in a PM.

  17. gmcgruther

    gmcgruther Well-Known Member

    85ad, I see you never actually realized the 1206 gasket is bigger in all directions not raised as you claim. Post a picture of them to prove it to be raised, you'll probably won't though. If you every went to the no et in milan, michigan, you would scratch your head and say that's impossible for factory cast iron 400 blocks to hold up to that power but you won't. Plus there is videos on youtube you will never lookup but there there! By the way, AFR don't just do run of the mill cnc jobs, its like telling smokey his boss does run of the mill cnc work, not. David Visner. does top notch work, that's why I asked if anyone has used CFD programing before, because David use's it to get the most out of ever cylinder to his customers engine build and car build. Now since you do such fine porting by hand maybe you should contact some of the greatest head porters out there and tell them cnc porting is run of the mill ;)
  18. 8ad-f85

    8ad-f85 Well-Known Member

    Meanwhile...on the 'Bullet...
  19. gmcgruther

    gmcgruther Well-Known Member

    Case solved, back to normal programming now ;)

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