All new to me to forgive me if these questions sound like common sense. Why would you pull a 350 to put in 455? What I'm reading, the 350 is a better, more durable and reliable engine. Maybe I misunderstood, but it seems to me that a 400hp 350 is a better engine than a 400hp 455? Now I can see the disadvantage for the 350 is not many options vs 455 has several performance parts. Also understand that the 455 starts with more HP. But if I am going to rebuild with better heads, pistons, cams, intake and exhaust... I would be doing the exact same with thing 455. The goal being a great daily driving, fun, reliable, durable 400-500HP engine that get some 1/4mile time on occasion. Throw on 100shot of NOS and see we hit the mid to low 12s. Suspension, brakes and transmission are also being redone. We are going to build a engine and I would hate the Buick to be down for the time it is going to take us to build it. So was thinking trying find a block at junkyard and put it on a stand until it is complete, then swap into the Buick. That way we enjoy our time with the car as long as we can. So if we going to find a block, would be just as easy to start a 455swap. Resell I'm guessing would be better as well with a 455.
Streetability. The 350 has to work harder to make 400 HP, bigger cam, then bigger converter to match the cam, steeper gears to match the rest of the combo. Think of it in terms of HP per cubic inch. Lack of good heads is a problem for the 350. 455 block is plenty durable for your goals....if built well. I like the idea of leaving the 350 and adding a little n2o for your goals. Build a 350hp 350, add 100 shot and you are right in the middle of your target range. Personal preference really. Best of luck, will be watching your progress.
you know the ole' saying "no replacment for displacment" course add technology (forced air, Fuel injected. etc...) and power to weight ratio to that.
The 455 has more parts available and acheiving the same horsepower levels will be cheaper with a 455. When you add in the expense required to change over the engine the gap closes. The 350 has the potential to get better gas mileage but a loose converter and higher rear gears could offset that. The 350 weighs less than a stock 455, which will help handling and braking. The 455 is surprisingly light for a big block, swap in aluminum heads and intake and the weight gap gets much smaller. You can use an aluminum intake on the 350, but aluminum heads are not available. I would drive the car as is until you get a solid impression of what trade offs you want to make. While you're doing that keep an eye on this board for engines. There have been some great deals with people selling parts or engines with much of the work already done. Leave your options open and if fate throws 350 parts in your future go that way, if you spot a killer deal on a 455 then that would be the way to go. Good Luck, John
Once you drive a car with a big block, you will know why. You will never go back. Where do you plan on finding better heads for a 350? There are no aftermarket options, and if you plan on paying for porting, it just makes sense to put the money into the big block. It will cost the same to hop up a big block as a 350, so why not get the extra hp? The only reason I can think of to stay with the 350 would be if you want your car to be slower than the rest.
other possible reasons to keep the 350: 1) numbers matching possibly 2)you want to run in a certain engine size class 3)Conversation starter "Oh that's a 350, i gotz one of those in ma Chevy!""mmmmm, not like this one :bla:" 4) Just to be different (that's why I'm keeping the 340 I've got, that and I can tell people it's not a MOPAR 340) 5) Think of all the 350 parts you can get from everyone pulling thiers out and putting a 455 in! :TU:
Here is the root of your misunderstanding. As the owner of AMP, Mike Phillips, recently posted 400 hp from a streetable normally aspirated Buick 350 ain't happening. A nice rebuild recently made about 300hp. Real big efforts from both JW and Amp with ported heads etc, intended for the street, costing $6500.00, made 350hp from both shops. You are not getting there without a happy dyno, a dedicated strip build, nitrous, turbos or unrealistic estimates. There are plenty of normally aspirated 455 Buicks running on the street making 500-600 hp. The fastest normally aspirated Buick 350 Skylark to run consistently was Sonny Seal in Tweedy. He ran in the 11s. It took Sonny years to perfect this dedicated strip car with a special intake and as I recall 2 four barrels. There are normally aspirated factory 455 blocks running Skylarks in the 8s in a quarter. And a number running in the 9s. The 455 based engines are bigger in displacement and have better aftermarket parts available. These are just the facts. And before we get to turbocharging and someone saying I am picking on the 350 Buick engine, for sure, there are Turbo 231 cid and Turbo 274 cid powered Buicks that will out run the 455 and the 350 cid powered cars. Those are just the facts too.
The best reason to a run a 350 is because it's different from everyone else. The second best reason is so the price on 455 parts doesn't get any more inflated than they already are The third best reason is because you can walk into any parts store and get whatever you need for your generic GM 350 (some parts may need extensive modifications to fit right)
Honestly, its quite a feelgood moment when someone looks at the 455 and say "its so big!" nuff said. :bglasses:
I second everything said here. 400HP Buick 350 is very difficult to achieve, and once achieved will have horrible drivability when compared to a very docile 400HP Buick 455. Every upgrade for the 350 will cost you the same to upgrade the 455, only you'll run out of upgrades sooner on the 350 (and consequently horsepower too). Now if you are talking turbo's, etc, I'd give the Buick 350 a go for sure.
If you are only looking for 12s then you could do that with a stock 350 and some nitrous... No need to go crazy with mods to the engine: Here is Nick's 12 second street car with stock 350 excluding alum intake and MILD camshaft, still through the stock exhaust manifolds on this run: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co7fE0BNWt4
I'll raise the chips in the pot a bit more. I have bought a lot of running Buick 455s for $200-250. I can buy one today out of a 70 Electra for $200.00 that was running when parked. "If" it still runs without any issues, you can rebuild the carb, change the jets and the hangers, recurve the distrib, put in a set of points and plugs, change the fluids, put it on a dyno and most likely make as good or better numbers than a 350 than you spent $6500.00 on for a top shelf rebuild, including porting its heads. Now it may not go the miles that the newly rebult 350 will go. But these cars are generally not driven many miles every year. It will use more fuel but I do not care. Used 455s are the best deal out there. And to be fair you can take a used GN engine,make some relatively cheap mods and beat the 455's numbers.
Thank you everyone for the responses. I will tell you that the Buick gets so many looks and compliments and the body is not in the greatest shape. It's so much fun to drive this beast around town. And currently, the engine is running very nicely, no hesitation and starts right up. Just not much "get up and go". My son is convinced his 6cyl mustang is faster. Cant have that. Sooooo Engine rebuild is in the near future, just hate to not be driving it around why waiting to rebuild the engine. I thought maybe find a salvage motor and build it, then swap for min time down. If I am doing that, guess I could go either, 350 or 455. Found a $375 455 on Craigslist and thought I would get some opinions. Note, it has a edelbrock carb and poston intake currently. I have found there is def an art to carb tuning and artist. If I run this carb rich, it will burn a tire (no posi..yet)...but doesn't run very smooth normal driving. Run carb lean and Buick just purrs... But can't spin the tire from stop. Tried a happy medium, ahhh forget it... "Mark build me a QJet". Running it lean till that swap. This engine definitely has more potential. Maybe the answer is simply add NOS and my QJet and go run it and see where we are at? If we break something.. So be it, was going rebuild anyway. Thanks for input guys! I have other questions, so I'll start few more threads. Forgive the newbie'ness.
Sean- Yes, Nick ran 12's with that 350, but he was spraying the ever loving $%^# out of it. Not good for longevity. Back in the day, I had a 69 GS with a blown up 400. I bought a running 70 Electra for $260 from a little old man. I swapped the 455 from the Electra into the GS. That engine was bone stock. I put a set of used Kenne Bell headers on it that I had laying around. The GS had a set of 4.10's in it which was really way too much gear for that 100k mile engine, but it ran consistent 13.70s at 91 mph at the track. I bet it would of went a little faster with a set of higher gears. Held together just fine. I would drive it to the track and tach 4k rpm the whole way.
I can attest to this. I had a 72 GS 350 Convertible - loved the car. Always got complements and questions at car shows - always good for conversation. But I wanted a big block 70 was my dream even though Id never driven a 455. I went as far as starting to put one together to swap into the GS350 but it was numbers matching, and it just didn't feel right. The 350 could not smoke those tires, but after reading Larrys power timing thread I could squeal them. Then, an opportunity came to sell the car, and I did. Everyone told me Id regret it... but I was after the dream. Took me 6 months and I found a factory 70 GS 455, it a color I liked with the options I wanted. The motor is stock except for a Crane Fireball Cam It didn't run nicely form the beginning. Ive done an intake, carb rebuild and a stock style distributor with an electronic kit and a engine wiring harness. Even before these changes, the tires will get loose very easily. But now... Its running well and Im full of excitement on every drive I took a video out the window when driving once and when I played it back I could hear myself giggling like a little girl :laugh: Didn't even know I was doing it :grin:
This is a project car to build with my son. The important part of this project is the time working with my boy and memories that will come from driving something we worked on. 1/4 mile testing is the cake, 12s would be icing! So I don't want, or have the talent to mod a bunch of parts to fit. It cost me more, but I want to be able to purchase parts and install them with my boy (who leaves home for college next year) that are more "bolt on" parts and not custom made to fit. Maybe next project. I've had a few people message me with suggestions and help and appreciate all the help I can get! That said, 455 has bolt on performance parts for just about everything. I found one I think that I can get to rebuild. Leave the 350 in the car...drive and enjoy the car... until the 455 engine is completed and ready for the swap. I have a rebuilt QJet coming and ... Why not, I'll pull trigger on NOS while the 455 is being built, maybe a few passes at the track for fun!
Possible reasons to keep a 350: 1) The car was built with a 350 (June 1972) 2) Numbers matching 3) It's not a Chevy 350, Olds 350, It's a BUICK 350! 4) Not the fastest thing on the road, but also not the slowest! 5) After 150,000 miles it still runs like new or better.....bone stock. (at 40 years old) Gotta Love It!
He was in the mid 12s with a worn out stock 350 on a 150 shot so that is not a huge shot. With head porting a person could run 12s with a 75 or 100 shot.... Here is another example: Guy "Foxe's Den" 355 Buick 13.31@100 mph motor 11.81@114 mph 125 shot nitrous And that engine is about 12 years old now and still running 11s.
Lets not get this turning into an arguement guys. Everyone knows it's comparing really nice apples to really nice oranges, and that means it's a matter of personal taste. I'd say play around with the tune on the stock engine for now since you have a good baseline. You can get the carb right and get the timing dialed in and see where that gets you. It'll be easier to notice when a change works or doesn't since you know where it was before the change. You can also look at changing the torque convertor or putting in a new cam/lifters to put the power where you want it. High rpm power is nice on a dyno but a disappointment on the street, and low rpm torque makes a car launch on the street but it loses on the track. In the meantime pick up a 455 or a turbo 231 for a couple hundred bucks and stash it in the corner until you figure out what parts are needed to make it accomplish your end goals. If you change your mind than sell the motor for what you paid for it and there's no loss other than the time you spent figuring out what to do with it.
