When is 585 horsepower, really 585 h.p.?

In early August, our town had a Sunday parade celebrating our annual Squamish Logger Sports Days. Our local car club participated in the parade, and because of our sponsor; A&W Restaurant, we also had the big-costumed Root Bear in the lead vehicle. The parade route was a slow drive along Cleveland Avenue, our town's main street. I was sandwiched between my friend's 1969 GTO, and a new factory-prepped Shelby Mustang. John is the proud owner of the Shelby, and being of retirement age, he's got great stories to tell of all the musclecars he'd purchased new. Once finishing the parade route, we were to return to A&W for a free lunch. So ol' John is teasing me, with some rear wheel squats, while driving in front of me, and the girl-friend in the '71 GS455. Finally, on a parallel street to Cleveland Ave., he pulls alongside my GS in the wrong side of this little 2-laner called Logger's Lane. Before I know it, we're both full-throttling down the road. I just couldn't believe my stock GS would keep up with this reported 585 h.p. race car, but it did while in 1st and 2nd gear to about 50 m.p.h.. The whole town must've heard and seen some of the commotion while we were racing. WE both got out of the gas,as one of the parade floats was coming down John's lane, with the girls on their float wildly shaking their fists at us. John, and I pulled into the restaurant parking, but John must have had some chores to catch up on, because he didn't join us inside. Pity, I wanted to hear his version of what had happened.

Take care,

Nando.

 

It was your torque that held you in until 50 MPH. I would guess he would have shortly starting pulling away. You most likely gave him a "WTF is going on here" moment though.:laugh:

 

Hi Matt,

I'd like to compare torque ratings for both motors. Am I being overconfident in wanting a piece of that Shelby with my stock 1986 GN? The GN is quicker than my GS.

Bye,

Nando.

 

Well we are talking about the Shelby GT500 right?

If thats it, it has 450HP at the rear wheel and 450 lbs-ft of torque. Site didn't say what RPM, but most likely above 4500.

In an 1/8 mile race you may have a shot with either. The 1/4 mile would go to the Stang if you didn't have performance mods.

Torque rules a 1/8 mile race.

 

Well, if the "stock" GN is quicker than the GS....and the GS held it's own against the GTO, then I have a hard time believing the GTO has 585 hp. Unless he was just playing with ya, or he had 0 traction.

 

Hi Matt, Jim,

If I had been playing Van Halen's" Panama" at the time, it wouldn't have been even close. That song is worth at least a tenth in the 1/4!
I'll find out more from a local Ford tech who knows all about John's Shelby.
The GN has a 1989 TTA chip and fuel pressure regulator, and K&N filter in the stock canister. No other engine upgrades, including the original tail-pipes.

Thanks for the responses.

Nando.

 

When he shows you his time slip for around 114-117 MPH in the 1/4 in a I'm assuming stock bodied GTO at roughly 4200#.

Mikey

 

He was racing the new Shelby.. Not the GTO!!

The factory HP rating is at the crank..

 

It wasn't the GTO it was the Shelby.

 

There are so many issues discussed here. But, I agree absolutely that the torque advantage is probably the initial answer. There is also gear ratios (rear axle & transmission together to give a final drive ratio), rear tire/wheel height (shorter rear tires mean general advantage at lower speeds and taller tire a possible advantage at higher speeds). The most obvious question I have is whether the new car HP ratings are flywheel (subject to all the same parasitic power losses in the downstream driveline) or "at the rear wheels"?

Torque rules. Let's face it, as much as we like to build up our beloved BBB compared to all the other elite musclecar engines ... the stock BBB just does not have the same HP numbers as the real HP numbers of the stock 454 LS6, the 426 Hemi, the 440 6bbl or even maybe the 427 side oiler. The issue is torque and the BBB has that in spades at a very low (meaning, usable) and broad RPM. Torque gets you rolling and HP carries you across the 1/4 finish line.

 

Wow,

I always love the feedback on the forum, when it comes to the technical aspects of a little backstreet upcomance. But really, when John had perused my stock engine compartment, while we were waiting for the parade to begin, he sensed I'd be road-kill in a street encounter. I've seen his new technology... and at $68k I'd expect no less. I sort of "rained on his parade" that day. John has some '70s muscle in his garage-maybe the GS would be more suited to something more nostalgic.

Keep the thread rollin'

Nando.

 

Something about HP ratings.All the factories advertised HP was for the papers.How could a 455 keep up and most of the times beat a LS6 rated at 425 horses.My friend next door's[by marriage]brother had a70 Hemy Cuda in '71.He said he never got beat,except one time he raced a S-1 and he lost.But that was the only time.I then asked him how many other S-1 did he race and he said only that one,to witch I replied :That's why you only lost once.True story,and his brother[my neighbor]had a GTX 440 6-pack,wanted to race my fast car,witch was faster then my son, [I had 2 70 cars,one was in the 11's and a conv,stock except for the cam,no head work,stock intake and stock manifolds,2 1/2 inch pipes running low 13's]so one Sunday afternoon,coming back from the track with my son and his 71 GS that ran 11.70 at the track on L.I.and I ran 13.25 he saw me coming first and challenged me.I said OK and then my son shows up and he said he wanted him.Lost badly to the BBB and a few months later he finally went to the track and guess what,he ran 13.80.In those day's running against all those Stang's made him thing he was so fast.# do not make a car go,only torque and hp does. BrunoD.

 

I just couldn't believe my stock GS would keep up with this reported 585 h.p. race car, but it did while in 1st and 2nd gear to about 50 m.p.h..

his OD transmission and higher revving motor were just about to kill you. but at lower speeds/rpms where he's out of his torque band but you're well inside yours, he can easily be meat on your table.

roll on races and 1-2 block races you'll impress him. go to a 1/4 mile strip and things might turn out a little more to his satisfaction.

 

Sorry guys, guess I'm getting old. I thought I read the race was the GTO and after rereading it I see the race was the Mustang. Again sorry.

Okay so when he shows you his timeslip with the 120 +/- MPH for the 1/4.

I been around long enough to know what people say and what gets published about horsepower without actual dyno or trap speed numbers is usually horsepoopy.

Mikey

 

Hi Mikey and all,

Appreciate all the comparative reasoning so far. You're right in saying real-world performance has no relation to factory specs..
Just to make it even more interesting, my '71 GS455 has a 3:08 non-posi rear, with 4 new P24560R15 BFG Radial TAs on stock Buick Rallye wheels. I recently had all the stock rear control arms re-bushed with factory-replacement bushings. I am using the Hotchkis Sport sway bar kit, and Bilstein shocks at all 4 corners. I did keep the original suspension pieces for the Barrett- Jackson groupies. My car feels like maybe a high 14-sec. to 15-sec. in stock trim. Nothing too overly exciting, but consistently hard-pulling for those block-to-block skirmishes. I was planning to race the GN at the track on Sept. 13th, but I think I'll take the GS instead. Neither of these cars have been raced in the 1/4 mile, yet.

Talk later,

Nando.

 

I like to compare HP and TQ to Voltage and Ampere.
Voltage can really sting but Ampere kills!


Nice going there 71staged btw :TU:

 

Hey Chrille.

Nice analogy! Seems like many Buick GS owners in Europe are from Sweden. Have you got anything going locally, or regionally for Buick GS car enthusiasts? How's the drag racing scene there?

Take care,

Nando.

 

Hey Nando. There are no GS-clubs here that I am aware of anyway, too bad since it would be cool. Saw my first 71 (or72? sorry) GS in live today at a local cruise. Ill post some pics in another thread There is a general buick club though.
As for dragracing we have a few 1/4mile tracks and some more 1/8 tracks. One of the few 1/4 tracks is close by (Mantorp, has a big event every year called Veidec Festival) and thats the only one Ive been to but sadly never punched it on that track. Maybe Ill give it a shot next year when I have things more under controll, car-wise.

:beers2:

 

Hi Chrille,

Are you already a member of the Buick Gran Sport Club of America? In the past, the GSCA offered a membership directory listing all its' members, world-wide. You'd be surprised how many Buick owners, you're not aware of, live close to you. This forum is also a great way to communicate with others.
Haven't checked all your posts, but tell me more about your GS, and how you acquired it.

Talk later,

Nando.

 

Hi all,

So, yesterday, my girl-friend and I, are at one of the local auto body shops in Squamish talking to the staff, and who should walk in, but good ol' John, the owner of the 2007 Shelby Mustang. Poor man was stopped and questioned by the RCMP, soon after our little escapade. Seems John was berated by an owner of a Toyota truck, who witnessed " whatever happened " and had spoken to a constable, who was helping with traffic control during the parade. The police then stopped, and warned John, making him feel guilty, for his alleged action as " someone who should know better at his age ". John, was shaking his head, because no one seemed to care about the other car, along-side him. Is this what it means to drive a " sleeper Buick "?
John, as I found out, did have his traction control engaged, and I asked him whether the sputtering I heard from his Mustang, was the rev-limiter being triggered during our run. He only smiled, because he was caught up in the moment. John knows about Buick torque, and said he's been practising with his car at a quiet road close to our town's landfill site. Guess what, I'm having a pair of BFG Drag Radials mounted on the Rallyes this Thursday. Maybe a pair of air bags in the rear coils will be my answer to a poor man's posi-traction, and John, and I may meet again.

Keep care,

Nando.