Traction Recipe - simple version

...SOME GOOD INFO FROM...70ApolloStaged..
I retreived this great post to share here.

The info below is all his...

Hooking on the street is all about the converter and geometry of the suspension.

Front= Looose, looose, loose. Weight transfer is the name of the game. 90/10 or adjustable shocks and no sway bar. Drag springs or QA1 coilover setup would be even better.

Rear= "Buick 4 speed" nailed it.

Rear control arm level with the ground. Takes the IC and moves it rearwards and down below the CG since the upper control arm is shorter than the lower. The upper will move the IC alot more than trying to do it with the lower. Still plants the tires but allows a teeny bit of squat before the hit and a slow input of said "hit", which you need on the street. Basically like tuning for a greasy, crap, track. A rear sway bar(even stock) is a must. Airbag in RR corner is a nice addition. I ran mine at 5psi only. I ran 15 dollar gas shocks on the rear, stock boxed lowers and rubber bushings in my 70 Stage1.

I ran this exact setup on my 70 Stage1 with an 11inch switch pitch 3500stall. I used 28x12.5 MT ET Streets at 11psi in the right and 12psi in the left. Car ran low11's/high10's on a 150shot of spray at 4000lbs with me in it. Car was completely uncut and all steel. Factory Stage1 pocket ported heads and stock shortblock with 10.75 to 1 compression. Lunati 253/266 cam on a 110 lobe separation angle. 60footed in the 1.55-1.6 range. Sprayed it halfway through first gear and ran out of gear at 1100feet due to 3.90 gears and a hard redline of 6000rpm I set for the motor's health. 126mph by 1100 feet and hold it right there thru the lights.

Relevance of all this was that on a good concrete street anywhere I wanted I could launch it the exact same way as I did on the track and dangle both front tires 6 to 10 inches off the ground on the leave. If the pavement was iffy I'd very lightly haze the tires out of the gate and the only discernable difference to the outside spectator was that I didn't pull tire on the launch. It got out hard even then, just didn't wheelie.

Don't ask me if I streetraced ALOT for 15 years to come to that setup as I will give you the standard line of "Streetracing is dangerous. Racing should be done on a track."

(Thankyou, 70 ApolloStaged, for this fun read...I love Street traction too! Gary B.)

 

Are the Moog 5410 and 5230 springs softer than Skylark 350 springs that may be sagging a little? Or are they, generally, only softer than the GS 455 springs? I did some internet searching and some places list the Moog springs as 250 (six banger) springs and some list them as 250 AND 350 springs.

 

The Moog 5401 rear and 5230 front springs are for:
Chevelles and Skylarks or Specials. I think the 6 cyl was shown and found the charts vary so much, it's hard to figure all the applications.
My solution.... I sought out the SMALL .609-.610 dia. wire and light load ratings from the Moog charts for front springs. Small wire springs are found on stripped light weight cars with smaller engines, like the Buick Special or Olds F85, Pontiac Tempest.
The GS springs are thick coil wire for hard cornering and handling, not launching. Skylarks are usually in the middle diameter numbers like .625 or so for the front.

 

So, I should probably just keep the original springs in my Skylark 455. They do sag a little, but more on the left side than the right. That might not even be a bad thing for a mild 455 on the street.

Another question: Should some cheap gas shocks help get my back end down so the geometry is correct with 28" tires? Or should I just ditch the tires for some 26"ers? Yeah, I know BFG T/As aren't that sticky (and I don't even have any "high stall" in the converter), but I want to maximize the suspension within reason if it's not too difficult. My car is all street.

Thanks for your help, Gary. There is some great information here!

 

Skylark springs are softer than GS springs. BUT, there are many variations of Skylark springs.
* The springs for a stick shift, V6, no power or AC will obvioulsy be softer. I like the .609 dia. ones.
* Springs for a fully optioned Skylark with AC, power everything, 340 eng, automatic trans will be firmer to support the weight.

So, Stage Two,
Go for the MOOG 5230 soft springs and cheap gas shocks for the front.
If the front rises easily on launch, your car won't care if you have 26" or 28" rear tires as long as the rear lower arm is near level with the frame.
If the front of the lower arm is within 1" to 1.75" higher than the rear of the arm, Your in the ball park. especially if you have soft springs on the rear that can squat a little on launch, which lowers the arm even more.

 

My car does seem to transfer the weight towards back a fair amount, especially when I let it hook in 1st gear. The photos below show it (1) at a stand, (2) at initial launch in 1st gear, and (3) towards the end of a burn out in 2nd gear. I was intentionally trying to do a burnout in these shots (all the same burn out), but you can see the front end looks to be higher than the rear when in motion. It also looks like I could use an HR bar. Maybe even remove the front sway bar. Ive never experienced wheel hop in this car, for what its worth.

Heres a link to some information on Moog springs: click here. Looking at the chart for 5401, it shows an install height of 7.50 and a load of 727. Does this mean the spring is 7.50 with a load of 727 pounds on it? If so, I can just weigh each corner of my Skylark and measure each spring to see how it compares to the chart, correct?

Youre probably right, though, about the front springs and shocks. The car currently sits higher in the back due to the 28 tires. Id just rather see the rear sit down because it looks better to me than raising the front.

 

Those don't appear to be real soft springs. I did'nt see a lot of rise in the pictures.
You should see my front end come up even when my tires don't get good bite.
My front tires are hardly touching the ground at all.
I don't plan to run any more 28" tires due to the rear height. I might try some 255/60-15 MT radials 27", or 275/50-15's at 26". I like "LOW" stance.
Cheap gas shocks are perfect for my car.
You are correct about the spring load rates and measurements.

 

My Skylark is a low-option car (no A/C, power, or disc brakes, and a bench seat). It weighs 3,600 right now with the 455/TH400 in it. And who knows, maybe somebody replaced the original springs along the way with who-knows-what. I'm not even sure what shocks are under there.

At any rate, this will give me some things to think about during the winter. Maybe I'll pick up a set of 26" MTs in the Spring and see how they do after the springs and shocks have been addressed.

 

StageTwo

What rear gear do you have?
I'm thinking, if you have a high rear gear and stock converter...
get a 2800-3000 stall. That matches the stock switch pitch converter that came from the factory on all small block and V6 buicks.
That will stretch those front springs and plant the rear tires.
Your world will come alive.

 

The gears are 3.42s with posi. The torque converter says "GM8HD" on it. The transmission shop said it's a heavy duty converter, mainly used in RV applications. It measures close to 12" and doesn't seem to have much stall. Here's a video of it in action.
click here
I preloaded it just for a split second to avoid shocking the driveline, then had to back out of the throttle a little in 1st gear to get traction. That's about the best I can do with the current setup.

I should have just gone with one of JW's 9.5" converters and a bigger cam. The cam is a TA 284-88H. I was too worried about streetability when putting this all together, but it appears I could have been a little more aggressive and still been fine. Will a 2,800 stall work with this 284-88H cam, you think? I may need to remove the motor next summer to replace the oil pan gasket, so could easily change the converter. But, I'm not in a big hurry to swap out cams just yet.

 

A bone stock 455 will handle a JW type 3000 converter. Some guys argue this, but a bone stock 300 ci 2barrel came out with a switch pitch with 2800-3000 stall.
Your cam is a mild one. I like the TA C118 for street. It is tame and "sneaky" as hell but can run 11's with a good converter and traction. It will have almost identical lift as the one you have now. Most versitle cam I know.
A good converter and C118 will really 'Light your fire". You'll have to work on traction issues but can be done economically.

 

Gary i called advanced auto and they actually stock the moog springs, they said that the 5230 spring is actually 1 inch shorter than a stock spring. is this correct? they quoted me a price of 114 for the pair

Cody

 

There is a wide range of springs for the A bodies. There are several for Buick, Cheny, Pontiac, Olds, Then there is the Special,Skylarks, GS, 442,Cutlas, F35,GTO,Tempest, ETC. springs of all sizes and heights. Oh, and 1965-66-67-....
Compaired to what? It is very hard to know. You never know exactly how many inches your going to get until you stuff 'em in and let the jack off.

Springs can vary by brand for the exact specification also.

Moog 5230's are the shortest soft springs I could find available and they have that .609 dia wire which stores a lot of energy for a dramatic launch off the line.

 

I'm 99% sure the Autozone Duralast springs are Moog springs in an Autozone box at a much lower price. $71 vs $114. Even the box is the same except for the printing.

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/pa...s&fromString=search&isSearchByPartNumber=true

You search them with

front: fcsXXXXs. XXXX=moog part number
rear: rcsXXXXs. XXXX=moog part number

 

Thanks, d7cook
Thats good info and available right at home.

 

Believe it or not got mine from amazon.com for 73.00 in a moog box,no freight haven't installed them in my 72 GS...will let you know about the 1 in difference.installed the 5379 in the rear seemed to raise the rear a little but did seem to improve the ride..No track times untill May of next year

 

Steve,
I have those 5379 springs in my car now and they are a little higher than I expected but they definately helped me get traction due to their flexability to let the suspension work. (The popular 5385's were too stiff). These 5379's put my lower control arms a hair over 1 1/2" higher in front than rear, compaired to my level rocker panels.

If you will put about 300 lbs in the trunk till spring. They settle a little anyway but maby you can urge a little extra out of them. Warm them evenly with a heat gun but keep the gas tank cool!!!
I'll be installing the shorter MOOG 5401 rear springs for next year.

 

have you ever tried diesel springs in the front. i had an 80 regal with the cutlass diesel springs and it would raise the front end way up when power braking or launching. handled well too. looked like Greg Gesslers car when hes staged. also looked like slow motion compared to Gesslers. rest of suspension was original to car.

 

Those are probably Moog 6450.
....G Body 1978-87 (not for 64-72 A bodies)....
These are heavy springs with .703 wire, 1881 lbs at 11.25" load height and 406 lb load rate. They will rise for launches OK but do not settle to a low stance and would be a bit stiff.

The Moog 5602 should give good results. It is for the small v8 with no air cond. .671 wire, 1680 lbs at 11.00" load height and 347 lb load rate.
Also;
Moog 5600 is lighter. 1600 lb
Moog 5604 is heavier. 1760 lb

Any G Body guys out there can give us some experienced info on G-springs?

 

Thanks for the advise about putting 300# of weight in the rear...Don't need to ,that's where the old lady rides { just kidding} glad to here it will not lower the front since my car sits low in the front anyway...have stock front non-air in front changing the rears to standard gas shocks hope you advise pans out...Thanks Steve