The term "frame-off" doesn't mean a thing to me anymore

Over the course of the last year, I've done enough work on two 60's musclecars to realize the term "frame-off", while suggesting a full restoration, can be very misleading. My first realization of this came in early 2004. The shop I work in dived deeply into a 1966 GTO tri-power, four speed, convertible. The car had been a "frame-off" restoration twelve years ago by a pair of brothers that were supposedly well known in the Pontiac circles here in the Cincinnati area. We soon realized, while the frame had indeed been off the car, they failed miserably in securing the body back on it! All four of the aft body cushions and both the ones alongside the front seats either had no bolts, no threads, broken cages with loose bolts, or a smaller bolt with a hole cut for a small plain nut. This was very disturbing and later we discovered the transmission crossmember was nearly completely rusted thru in one of the isolators.

My second experience was a little closer to home. A few months ago I purchased a 1969 GS350 hardtop. The car had been in the process of a "frame-off" restoration for over ten years and two owners. Before I purchased the car the seller sent me pictures of the frame and body in work. Long story short, I was crawling around the underside today and shocked at what I saw. The fellow had painted right over two rust holes in the frame AND set the body back down on the car with new cushions. Now an original GS Fireglow car is going to the scrap yard instead of back on the road. Had someone done it right the first time, I might have passed this machine onto someone else. It is very disappointing. I have to admit, once again, I failed to look it over like I should have. I just assumed a frame as clean and painted as this was in good condition. Surely, if there were any problems with it the owner would have told me? NOT. Here is how clean and nice the forward part of the frame was.

 

The rear frame crossmember was so good I could read the "Hayes" and numbers stamped into it.

 

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying, is it not fixable?

 

The seller had sent me this picture prior to my purchase of the car.

 

Now, today, I find rust holes in the GS frame. At least I found them before I sold the car to someone else who would have thought the frame was nice.

 

That's not good! :error:

But can it be fixed instead of junking the whole car?

Or maybe sell it to someone that wants to build a full tube chassis race car! :TU:

 

Two new bolts are holding the crossmember while a rust hole lies between them. The previous owner was a Mopar guy. He had a Charger before this Buick and was going back to a Cuda. I don't think a Buick man works like this.

:af: :spank: :blast:

 

The GTO is a long way from where it was earlier this year. This picture is about a month old. Now, the shell just lacks a last blocking and paint before going back onto the frame and chasis.

At least this musclecar will live on.

 

Brian, any restoration is only as good as the guy who did the work. Frame off, frame on, "restored" "correct" "#'s matching" all mean something different to different people.

I get tired of hearing "oh yeah, I restore cars all the time too"...yeah well spray bombing a fender na dputitng in new carpet is not a restoration and there are different levels to the hobby...and certianly different skills among the people doing the work.

I think the car was misrepresented. I would be looking for a refund...the guy should have sent you pictures of the PROBLEMS, not generic 30 feet away pictures...

later
Tim

 

Don't send it to the scrap yard!!!! Yeah, its an unpleasant surprise and I can understand being upset about it, that amount of rust shouldn't be terminal! Someone on the board should have knowledge of a wrecked car with a good frame a repair section could be taken from.

 

it looks like the frame rusted from the inside out. if so there is obviously going to be more rust than we see in the pictures. is this typically how all frames rust?

 

I can't say for other areas of the country, but in areas where there's an abundance of gravel roads like the upper midwest here, yes, they usually rust out from the inside. They build up dirt & crud in the frame. When it gets wet it just holds the moisture there. We see a lot of frames rotted out like that. I've also seen quite a few repaired as well.

 

It can be fixed...

 

I agree Cody. Almost anything can be fixed if you want to put the time and money into it. But this frame damage is the icing on the cake with this former project car. My primary interest in obtaining the Fireglow GS350 was gaining parts for my GS400 convertible. I had hoped to turn the GS350 car over to someone who wanted a "core" for a restoration or a bracket car and hoped to see a small amount of money in return. I even had a V8 member who agreed to buy the frame and shell, but I immediately called him when I found the damage. Our email agreement for a deal was deemed not in his best interest and I am sure glad someone didn't waste their time traveling 5 hours to pick up junk. My purpose for this thread was sort of another BUYER BEWARE warning more than anything. Don't let the term "frame-off" prejudice you into thinking any car is sound. As for this GS350, it maybe repairable, but not in my time and money limited world.

 

Hi Tim,
You're right in that the car was somewhat misrepresented {after all she hardly looks ready for the show field}. However, no one forced me into handing him the cash. It is my responsiblity to check a car over. This particular car was about $1,400 more than any previous "parts car" I had ever purchased. I paid the premium because at the time I thought the car and its parts were worth it. While this GS350 is now a flat liner as far as I am concerned, at least some great parts will go towards my convertible and we all know how tough nice GS parts are to come by.

 

Brian,
The trans x-mbr pic you show is interesting. No one has noticed that is not a Buick x-mbr. The bolt holes are two close together. Buick has a rubber isolator inside a metal cap. The bolt holes should be about 4-4.5" apart.
So, the rust in the frame where you showed the bolt holes is not critical. That can be welded shut. Same goes for the other rear holes..they are not large or critical. Depending on the other amount of rust on the frame, may be easier to get another frame.

 

George,
I was curious about that myself. It has been many years since I've owned a 350/350, and I thought that maybe the crossmember was different for a small block compared to the isolator type 400/400. No doubt the original Buick crossmember was either rusted through or lost and he probably used a Chevelle piece. It has no isolator at all. Is that correct for a Chevelle? o No:

 

Brian,
If the crossmember resembles the stamped steel buick ones, then it is an Olds crossmember. If it looks like a flattened and bent tube it is a chevy. (I don't know what a pontiac looks like.)
Duane

So you won't feel too bad about your frame off,
Years ago I paid over 15 grand to have a 70 Stage 1 4-speed done. After I got it home and started looking at it, I saw all kinds of things wrong. The frame and all the chassis parts were blasted and painted, without being primed first. The body had all kinds of alignment problems, but the hood was the best. The guy had not used a nice hood to start with. The hood grills at the back of the hood were rusty and the paint was blistering along the edges. He just painted over everything and block sanded the hood. The grills looked like they had mumps.

For years all I wanted to do was pour lacquer thinner over the entire car so I would have to start over. What I ended up doing was taking the entire suspension apart, repainting everything myself, and selling it for what the resto cost me.
It was sad to see this happen to a matching numbers car, but the new owner fixed the body alignment/paint problems and ended up with a very nice car.
Duane

 

Gritty,
Well if that's the case it must have been "customized" a bit. I have seen quite a few interesting parts alterations over the years. It's amazing what some people do to make parts fit.
Duane

 

I know early crossmembers in the 65-67 cars came both ways. my 65 has bolt in style and my other 65 has the isolators. my 66 has bolt in style and so does my 67 GS.