I've heard a lot of hype about the new TA Aluminum stage 1 heads. I'm sure they are a great product, just like everything else from them:grin: . However, I must be missing something, and i was hoping someone could set me straight. Why would anybody purchase these versus the stage 2 head from TA? I thought the website for TA said the price will be the same for the two, flow will be a little less in the stage 1 head vs S2 head. Both heads can use stock valve components, stock or replacement intake. You must use S2 headers with the S2 heads, this seems to be the only diffference. So for the same money as the Stage 2 heads, you get a head that flows less? What am I missing? This is in absolutely no way a rip or a slam, I'm just looking for an educated answer on it, and i'm sure someone out there has it. Thanks Brett Schmahl
I wondered the same thing myself,the stage 1`s might be more expensive than the stage 2`s,i really hope not but thats what i heard,the only good thing about the stage 1 is that you dont have to buy a new set of headers and use your existing ones of exhaust manifolds if you`d like,and if you have a 64-67 car you will have to modify to fit the stage 2 headers in,thats what i think,i personally wished to get the stage 2 but the header problem is a disaster and will not allow me so i have to settle for the stage 1`s. Thanks
I've seen the Stage 2 heads on two cars. Both of them required cutting down the bolt in the passenger side A-arm for header clearance. You could also go "stealth" with the aluminum Stage 1's - they could be painted engine color and run with modified stock manifolds. You can't do it without the headers for the Stage 2's.
I believe the points of the aluminum Stage 1 heads are for the guys starting out, lower budgets(maybe not initially comparing to a set of iron heads lying around your garage, but in terms of machine work obtaining better flowing heads, and longivity, being able to repair a damaged head), it is a lower buget and more of a street car build up. Or/and making things slightly simpler. I currently run the steel heads in the 9's with extensive port work. The same can be had with these heads yet I would save another 80 plus pounds of weight, plus they would flow better. If (knock on wood) let's say starting out fresh with nothing to start with. I would go for the Aluminum Stage 1 heads instead of iron ones. I am pretty certain that they are a complete bolt on item (after you have the machine work done) where everything else fits with no modifications like extra head bolts for the block. With the limited resources of stock blocks I would think the same would also go for the heads. With the aluminum replacements that would be no problem at least with the heads. Furthermore, if you damage a iron head more than likely it's junk, where as an aluminum can be repaired saving you the cost of a few thousand of starting all over again with a fresh set. Another example is my block is not drilled for the extra head bolts on the Stage 2 heads. Yet more than likely I will buy a set of the Aluminum Stage! heads have them worked and when I want all I have to do is a swap. The engine doesn't even have to come out. Plus the aluminums would flow better than the iron counterparts and save some 80 pounds and won't break my bank on the quest to going faster. Lastly the aluminums have a boss in place for the extra bolt holes if you still desire the extra insurance for the heads on those high compression build-ups. Rick Martinez
Brett .. Good questions, There are a couple of reasons for this new head, and why it will be attractive to buyers, vs a STG 2 head. As George mentioned, headers in some chassis for the stage 2 are a problem. I do believe, that the real reason for the development of this head, was to get a viable alternative to porting the death out of old iron heads, to get them to flow well. If you consider the cost of taking a set of iron core heads, doing a quality rebuild, stage 1 conversion, and a competition port job, vs buying the new aluminum head, you will see that you will be money ahead to just go with the new ones. You will end up with a set of heads that flows more, for the same or less money. Another consideration is changeover costs. A lot of folks don't want to have to buy new headers, when upgrading. And some like to have heads readily available, and not have to wait weeks or months to have stuff ported. Hopefully, once this program gets going, 280- 300+ CFM stage 1 heads will be just a phone call away. I have a set of 310 CFM iron heads, and they have $1800 worth of porting in them..:eek2: So when we consider what it costs to do the irons that way, these heads are very attractive. And let's not forget that price did not include the required rebuilding work! Not everyone wants to go to a Stage 2 head. I have a perfect example in the shop right now. We are doing a '72 Stage 1 convertable, and it's owner has no intention of going to a stage 2 head, but does love the idea going to the Stage 1 aluminum head, which we will be doing. It's simply a preference thing. This new head opens up a whole new ballgame, for stage 1 performance. A lot of work was done to the exhaust side of the head, to "fix" what is the real weak point, flow wise, for the iron head. If we can bring up the effiecency of the exhaust side, we very well may be able to go away from such a large duration split (ie 238/248) and the overlap that comes with it. In the past, we were limited in selecting intake duration numbers, knowing that we generally needed 10* more exhaust duration, to get the gasses out, and overcome the weak point of the head, that being the exhaust side. And intake duration = power... always has, always will! If we can play with the numbers a little, and take advantage of the better flow on the exhaust side of this new head, it will be possible to build a car with a better idle, due to the lesser overall overlap, and make more HP that was available in the past. We have always been working with a static head flow/ cam duration combination, until now. Shortly, I will be recieving one of the first sets of these heads, for flow study and anaylsis, and then we will do a complete buildup based on these new heads. Our current combinations include a small valve Level 1 motor (the convertable motor) which has ported heads on it, that flow about 255 cfm, at .500 lift, and 180 in the exhaust. That engine makes 470 HP, and 540 TQ, with headers a performer and a Q-jet. It runs a 230/240 duration cam, on a 114 centerline. This combo has really great low speed torque, without "giving up" at 5000 rpm, and is well suited to low 3 series rear end gears, and a 2500 stall fixed pitch converter. It's a grocery getter, that can be, and is, driven every day. You can hear the cam lope, but it is not at all noticeable or objectionable. The Level 2 Motor we build (the hot rod motor) runs STG 1 competition ported heads, a big TQ or Holley on a Performer or SP 1, and headers, with a cam with durations of 238/248 on a 112 centerline. This is the 530+ HP motor. Head flow numbers on this combo are in the 270 cfm range, .400 lifts at about 260, and .300 lifts in the .220 range. The exhaust flow is limited, to around 200 cfm in these iron heads, unless you really want to spend some serious bucks. It requires the cam duration and the 10* split, to make this type of power,considering both motors only run 9.8-1 compression. But I don't reccomend this cam to folks who want to drive long distances, or use it every day, as although we have figured out ways to make the cam lope managable, there is no doubt it has a big "stick" in it. This combo is much more touchy, to get the tuning right, to get it to idle down, and provide good low speed power. I have done it, but it's a much trickier deal. Grandma knows this is not her car... I have often contemplated building a motor that is in the middle of these two, for guys who want greater power than the level 1 motor, but don't want to deal with the required equitment (VP or other high stall converters, ect..) that is required to run this on the street, with good drivability. I suppose I could "half a$$e a set of STG 1 iron heads, but that's really not in my nature, as I feel that if your not going all the way with the porting, after you plunk down the cash for a STG 1 Conversion, then your really missing the boat, performance wise. You would have been better off to have your standard valve heads ported, when you consider the performance increases, vs the costs. But now into the picture enters this new head. With "out of the box" intake flow projected to be in the 280-300 cfm range, and flow in the 200- 220 range, we can now go away from such a big split in duration, and actually pull the numbers back a little, to make the same power as before. With better heads on either of these motors, 500 HP, with a cam that you can just barely hear, is not out of the question. And if you go "full tilt" with these heads, I don't see any problem feeding a big cube motor, in super hot street applications... Yes, you can do this now with STG 2 heads, but you lose the "stealth" factor. If a guy were to paint these new aluminum heads red, you may really have to look twice to see they are even on the motor.... they look "stock". Especially if you used a set of Greg's Gessler's ported factory exhaust manifolds on them. And, just for the novelty of it, I plan on running a wild, big cube motor in my new lightweight tube frame '70 GS race car. With a set of these heads, fully ported. One big reason is the fact that the body of this car started out life as a genuine Stg car, and I feel the STG 1 heads are more true to the cars heritage. We will be looking to make in the range of 725-750 HP with this motor, and in a 2300 lbs car, things should be real exciting. I almost consider going to the STG 2 design to be "too easy". We will be looking to build a full bodied GS, 8 second, Stage 1 car..:eek2: Ought to be a challenge for sure...
WHAT? Ya mean Mike at TA is not planning to come out with a set of lightweight, high flow, stock appearing, aluminum exhaust manifolds to go with the new heads? :grin: Seriously, can ported iron exhaust manifolds handle this increase in CFM?
Tommy I don't know the tech. stuff behind that one maybe Jim Weise may. Or Greg Gessler would be able to give you exact flow numbers and data. One fine example showing they do work well, is Greg Gessler, though not running aluminum Stage 1 heads, (running the iron Stage 1's) he running his stock worked exhaust manifolds. At this past Year One Event at Bristol with a high elevation he ran an 11.75 at 116 mph on street radials and in 100% stock appearing street trim, on all Buick power. Back in the northeast in good air you can expect 11.50's no doubt. So I guess the exhaust manifolds do work, cause his engine evidently is making good power on a 3,500+ pound car. If they work well with iron heads I'm sure they would work well also with the Aluminum Stage 1 heads. I am sure with headers you would run better with the heads breathing better. But being Iron or Aluminum, I guess it's up to the car owner on the particular combo they chose. If you are looking to run fast with that "stock appearing look" they would be the right combo. Yeah you may sacrifice some HP, but again its your choice. Rick Martinez
Two comments....Jim, TOO EASY????? Are you out of your mind???? I can't even consider the past ten years of running the stage 2s as anything close to easy, you nut!!!:laugh: Rick, you need to be corrected as usual.ou: Greg ran his car on G-60-15 Polyglas GTs (not street radials) when he got that killer ET. Now THAT'S immpressive!
Sorry Doug... I guess I should have said the STG 2 head can flow so well, it's too easy to make HP with them... That work for ya? JW
:moonu: Hey Doug, The last time I ran any type of street tires at the track was about 10-12 years ago. So as far as I'm concerned a street legal tire is a street legal tire PERIOD. Yeah I know some are designed for this and some for that for racing. But to me if it is street legal it's a street tire. Whether it be polyglas GT's, radials, cheater slicks, or trailer tires. The bottom line and the point I was trying to get across (you must be inhailing those VP fumes again) is that regardless; on street tires, stock appearing closed exhaust, he ran 11.75 and that alone is impressive. Doug Doug Doug....I know your stressed and worried about November 10th coming up where I will drill you deeper "than an Arab in the desert looking for oil" at the lights Or should I say deeper than Linda Lovelace ever dreamed of going ou: hahahahahahahahahahah geez I crack myself up
For me, the big draw is being able to use M/T Super Scavengers. ( in addition to everything already mentioned)
