I have been driving the Electra around for a couple months now with the new TA-212 in it, and it feels pretty good..I am running it with an initial advance of 12 degrees, and I am not getting any ping when i get into it a bit..However I don't know if I am getting the most out of it. After searching the boards I have had alot of my questions answered, but I have a couple more. I have installed this cam straight up with a stock timing chain replacement, and there didn't seem to be any advance ground into it..After I had it in the balancer mark lined up perfectly at zero, and the motor seemed to be at TDC with the lifters unloaded. My questions are as follows: What initial advance are you running with no vacuum advance at idle? To those who have recurved the distributor, where does your initial fall after finding 30-32 degrees total at about 2500RPM? Should I be running this cam at around the 4 degree mark or does the 212 like a little more? Being I have the cam in a BIG car, will I get more torque by retarding it a bit or keeping it advanced? Thanks guys for any help you might be able to give..I am sure a lot of you have alot more experience with this cam than I do..
Without using a degree wheel, you'll never know where the cam actually is. Even the TA double-roller timing chain / gears are something like 4* advanced, and I'll bet the stock gears are hit-and-miss. I installed my 212 (w/ TA timing set) at true 2* advanced. IIRC, my initial ignition timing is 12 degrees with all 34 degrees in at 2500 rpm. (Adjustable vacuum advance). Advancing the cam tends to increase move the torque down the rpm range, as it closes the intake valve earlier and "traps" more compression (increasing the dynamic compression ratio). I don't know where it "should" be, but mine pulls the 2NABOT like a scalded dog all the way from idle to 5500 rpm.
I called TA and for my 284-88H cam (very close to the 212) they said 12-14 deg initial was appropriate. Your second question doesn't make much sense to me as you generally limit your total advance based on your initial... not the other way around. I used a degree wheel and installed the cam at 6 deg advance thinking that I was going to get more torque for my heavy Riviera. However, I have problems with detonation (even though I followed the advice of others on the board who said that if you polish the s#!t out of your combustion chambers you wont get detonation with less than 10:1 compression). I am going to retard the cam back to the recommended 4 deg to try to lessen cylinder pressure. I've got about 9.7:1 for static compression ratio... I don't know what yours is so I don't know if we are comparing apples to apples here, but the point is that advancing the cam will close the intake valve sooner, raise your dynamic compression, bring max torque lower in the revs (and raise the max torque, I think) and raise the possibility of detonation. If you didn't use a degree wheel to install the cam you don't really know what your cam advance/retard is. A good place to start is to measure it for real. Other than that, I don't know if I'd mess with the recommended 4 deg advance.
I should probably add that I have some cooling issues and my carb isn't sorted out yet... I should refrain from blaming my detonation issues totally on my cam timing/static compression
Bill, I hope you know that you are talking about two different things, valve timing, and ignition timing. They are not the same. Installing your cam advanced or retarded affects the valve timing in relation to piston movement. Moving the distributor around affects ignition timing, the timing of the spark in relation to piston movement. The two have no affect on each other. Most cams have 4* of advance ground into them. Installing them straight up, and there should be 4* of valve timing advance. You never know for sure unless you degree the cam when you install it. The 212 cam has a 112* lobe center. It should be degreed to a 108* Intake Center line, which would make it 4* advanced. You have no choice of what initial timing you can run with the set total advance you choose to run. There is a certain amount of mechanical advance built into your distributor. The amount varies from one distributor to the next. Let's say you have a distributor with 30* of mechanical advance built in, and you want to run 34* of total advance. You must run 4* of initial advance. You have no choice, 4 + 30 = 34. If you ran 12* initial, you would have, 12 +30 = 42* total. The only way to change this is to take the distributor apart and modify it for less mechanical advance. Some HEI's can be modified by changing the center plate and advance weights. Points distributors must be disassembled and there is a slot that must be welded and then custom ground for the amount of mechanical advance you want to run. I'm not saying you necessarily have to do this. My point is, you don't know what's in your distributor. That's why I advise you to set the total advance you want to run. You need light springs to do this. The initial advance falls where it falls. If you haven't read my Power Timing thread. It's in the FAQ Forum. http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=63475
I have read through the power timing article quite a few times, and yes I am talking about ignition timing, not the cam to crank timing. I have not done the HEI mod yet, but well on my way..That is if I make it before I have to store it up for the winter..I haven't tweaked it much yet since getting the motor in and running, but I do know that I will be changing the advance curve and spring rates..However I don't understand one thing..If the 212 cam has 4 degrees ground into it, and I am running it at 12 BTDC, why is it not pinging like crazy when I get into it? That would mean I am really running at 16 Degrees advanced. With a stock 75 distributor and the vacuum advance I am pretty sure that when it's all in it would be more than 40 total unless something is not working correctly..I'll have to look into it a bit more and do some playing..It runs really well with the 12 degrees and the new 455 quadrajet I put on it instead of the 350 carb..Nothing but idle issues with that one because of the idle circuits. I love the sound of the exhaust with the magnaflow on it..Nice low rumble..
Bill, :grin: Again, 4* of valve timing advance + 12* of ignition advance have absolutely nothing to do with one another, and you don't add them together to get 16* advanced. Whatever the cam was installed at, is where it's at. There's no way of changing that unless you take the timing cover off and alter the chain and gears. Your ignition total advance needs to be checked. You don't know where that falls because you haven't checked it. It's very easy as long as you have some light springs. Get a Mr. Gasket or Crane advance kit. Install the lightest springs in the kit and find out where your total advance is. You are assuming it is 40* +, but it may not be. Find out for sure.
Thanks Larry, I guess the whole time I thought it was 4+12..Lol..Guess not..Ok I will try to get to that as soon as possible as I don't know where it actually falls at about 32 degrees of total ignition timing..Time to go buy up a kit..Thanks!
My TA 212 is installed 4* advanced, and the engine seems to be happiest with about 12-13 initial advance.
I know this thread is really old, and wondered if I should even come back to it, but I wanted to give a long term ownership update with this cam. I've been running the same 212 cam in the same engine since 2008. I've been happy with it since day one. It has enough torque low, quite a bit better after 20 mph though, and 60 to the moon is quick, and fun. It has 3.08 gears around back being an original 350 car, and Larry got me down the road with timing setup long ago. Thanks Larry. I never did degree the cam, but I have it at 34 total, with 12 initial, and all the timing is in by 2200 with the lightest springs possible. I also had to limit the vacuum advance to 10 degrees using the guide here on the board. The big Electra gets going pretty good, and 0-60 is just under 8 seconds. That seems quick in a car this size? I don't think I could get any better without sinking big money into it. I have a Jim W. converter, but unfortunately, I do not know the stall, and with 430 heads, I don't know the CR. I know there is some talk on the board about this cam in in a big car being a little weak, but I certainly would do it again. At least for my config., or maybe I just don't know any better? Anyway, just throwing it out there if anybody was still waffling about this cam in a heavy car. I feel like you could do worse things.
