Guys I hate to ask this question. I will be installing a 455 in my all original GS350 car that has a stock 4sp already in it. I hope that I don't need to change anything but the motor, flywheel and clutch. I like to hear what experience anyone has on this matter. George
As I recall there are some things about the 350 set up that are different. I recall it being some of the rods lengths as the differnce in the size of the engines puts the fork in a different location relative to the firewall. Reggie (Sunbuick) and Scott Miller will know.
George, Sorry, you will need to get a new z-bar to make it work. Dave Kliener's parts are the way to go. Jim
First off to Rob - great pictures. These are what we need to see to properly communicate. I am impressed with the Year 1 Z-bar for what I can see in the Pic - it looks very good. For the record I have been able to use a standard clutch fork with the push rod and standard Alum BOP bellhousing in two 455 conversions with no rubbing or hangup problems. For George, GS350 differences are different - flywheel - clutch fork and lower push rod(this can be reused though) - Z-bar major difference - upper clutch rod, same shape just different length(about 1/2" shorter in 350) - Block ball stud - block thread on 350 adn 455 are different 455 uses an 11" clutch bolt pattern(some 12" clutches will bolt up to it) 350 uses a 10 1/2" clutch bolt pattern All Buick Olds Pontiac bellhousings are virtually the same, Note that the standard style is what Rob posted - bulges on both sides to clear starters on the right and left side of the engines. There are a few "one bulge" bellhousings out there that are not BOP generic(they are not common) George the bottom line is that you should get a Kleiner upper clutch rod and Z-bar, get a Mike Garrison 455 block ball stud and you can reuse your clutch fork and lower push rod(you will likely have to cut/shorten the lower adjuster) as I have.
Luckily I typed some of my old post in Word so this was on my hard drive from an old lost post. here is the difference from 350 vs 400 per the 1968 Assembly manual. The 250 and 350 Cu. In. Equalizer assembly (Z-bar, bell crank etc...) #401077, the illustration shows it with the tabs to be constructed from folded stock (c-channel) Adjustment rod #9779202, illustrated as longer than the 400. It is a push type non heim joint. Ball stud from block #3816341 illustrated, the seal to the block is #382658 and is much smaller (only covers the treads). Pedal to Z-bar rod #401080 The 400Cu. In. Equalizer assembly (Z-bar, bell crank etc...) #1385404, the illustration shows it with the tabs to be constructed from flat bar stock. Adjustment rod #1378077, illustrated as shorter than the 350. It is a push type non heim joint also. Ball stud from block #1375615 illustrated the seal to the block is #1375616 and is much larger (kind of looks like a socket). Pedal to Z-bar rod #1385394
pic Here is that pic with the lakewood installed, and the lower rod pushing upwards. ( sorry for the crappy pic, It was like 20 degrees out and my hands were shaking) If you look at the other pics I posted you can see that the fork is higher. I was thinking if just drilling a hole 3/4 of an inch higher on the z-bar leg to correct it. What do you guys think? Rob
Greg - good post with GM part numbers even, not that any GM parts are available and of course no parts were actually stamped with the part numbers..... Good catch as well, I had missed the different block ball stud in my earlier post(I have edited it). Rob, I suppose you can redrill a hole in your Z-bar higher up however you will loose some overall travel and increase the leverage with may correspond to a bit of a loss of "pedal feel". If you do put in another hole, I would suggest keeping it to a minimum distance change. I also did a neat comparison last night on clutch forks. I have 3 clutch forks, an orig 455 clevis pin style, an orig 350 style and a new style(very beefy). If you put them all side by side the new one has different length for the push arm(about 3/8" longer). You can also see this in Robs picture above, his comparison is to a new style not OEM. This is just another issue of new parts not really being proper replacements.
Reg, You are absolutely correct. I have done the same thing with a few parts that I have found. I have a chevelle fork that my uncle gave me that is original from 1970, thats closer to an original buick than some of the repro stuff. I think Dave Kleiners stuff is the closest to original that Ive seen. Clutch forks are probably the sloppiest reproduced part Ive seen yet. The z-bar I have isnt too far off. Its very heavy gage metal, no doubt about that. Damn thing probably weighs a pound or so, and the shaping is so odd, yet it seems to work. I had been thinking of purchasing a Dave Kleiner z-bar instead of drilling mine. His seem to be a bit more like the original, and the lower leg seems a bit shorter. Any thoughts? Rob
Rob, I have two of Kleiners Z-bars at home. I can take pics or measurements if you want to compare to your Y1 Z-bar.
my reply Reg, Thanks for the pics, you have solved my dilemma. The YO bar is one inch longer than dave's. Why, I have no idea. I drilled a hole a half inch higher, and it works fine, no more binding. Other than that I believe the bars are identical. The only difference I can see is that dave includes the grease fitting and rubber bushing that meets the upper clutch rod, where as the YO bar doesnt. Also an interesting point is that there is some argument that chevelle z-bar's work in buicks. In my searching in my garage I came across a chevelle bar, and not only are the legs shorter, but the angles are different....just thought Id throw that out there... Rob :3gears: Thanks again Reg!!!!! :beer
Hey Guys , I have been lurking for a while and have decided to give my two cents--for what its worth. I had a completely different experience with the conversion from auto to manual. I bought a kit for a chevelle (68-72)from one of the aftermarket sources( its been almost 5 years ago) and it just plain old bolted in. The bottom linkage I had to fabricate ( connecting the z bar to the t/o bearing lever) but that was it. I do have a lakewood bellhousing with an adjutable pivot ball but that was it. I hate to confuse the issue . At the time I built my car these other pieces were not available so I made do. With the "proper " stuff available now ,I would do the new buick specific stuff if I had to do it again. By the way, manual trans big block car on the street is just so much fun. Try one with a five speed with a 3.25 first gear. I highly recomend it. thanks george
George, I have a 455 that i want to hook to a 5 speed. I was thinking a t5, but members here,by the looks of it, don't recommend that trans for that engine. Where can i get a doug nash 5 speed? Was it stock on any cars? If your doug nash, built or or not, can hold enough to get u in the sevens, then its good enough for playing on the street for me. Thanks. juan
Juan, I need to quickly clarify. Doug Nash as a company is now defunct. I have one in my car which is in good shape but it has straight cut gears so it is noisy(it sounds like a nextel cup car). I like it though because it is strong as heck but I will soon replace it because its got no speedo housing and you have to scrounge for spare parts. The transmaission that replaced the Doug Nash is the Richmond 5 speed. Very good transmission,looks almost the same,bolts in like a muncie(a little longer) and Richmond still services parts for it . They are about 13-1400 through Jegs /summit. Very strong but one to one 5th gear( no O/D). T5 is a different animal and it comes in MANY versions and various strengths and torque ratings. There are some new pieces out there to make them stronger --but the board members are right with the torque that these motors make it probably would tear one up. Richmond has a SIX speed (has OD) that is about three grand and is as strong as the 5 speed they make.This is probably what I will switch to. I am not afraid of breaking my Nash because the car is just punishing the tires on the street anyway--never hooks and has the chance to break. The trans in my race car is COMPLETLY different . It is a liberty clutchless 5 speed .It is sequential ( no clutch between shifts) and cost 8k plus. Definitly not the ticket for your street car. Hope that clears it up for you George
Get the Tremec TKO600 5-speed. It's rated at 600 ft-lbs of engine torque. Their TKO500 is only rated to 500 ft-lbs. Much stronger than the T5.
