I don't enough about the MSD springs to tell you the RPM they allow full advance at. Did you read my Power Timing thread? If so, what don't you understand? Point Dwell is unaffected by Timing. Once the dwell is set, you can forget it.
Robbie, First thing you need to do is make 30* mark on your balancer. Standing in front of the car and looking down at the stock balancer mark, measure 1.76" clockwise (45mm) and make a second mark. Now disconnect and plug the vacuum advance. hook up your timing light, start the engine and point the light at the balancer. Slowly rev the engine and watch your new 30* mark. As you slowly increase the engine RPM, you will notice that the 30* mark will move up. At some RPM, the mark will stop and move no higher. It should be aligned with a number on the timing tab. If it stops at the 2, your total timing is 32 (30 + 2), if it stops at the 4, 34. Understand? Try that first and we will go from there.
I'm not sure what Larry doesn't like about the set up I gave you to try, I've been using that set up for many years. I just did the same set up in a bone stock 70 electra with a 455 with no pinging, use to run 10*/28* all in by 2500 in a chev 3/4 pick up with 70 455 that would tow a mountain. Along with countless other buick 400/430/455's and never had a ping problem with this comboo No: another funny thing is I've never had to run a adjustable vacuum advanceou: One thing I do know is you guys down south don't have good fuel like we do up here. Robbie the reason it pings with that bushing and not with the rubber is, the Msd bushing is to small so when you have it set at 2* the total timing is way above 32* kinda the same idea as not having a bushing. If you need me to send you one of the kits I use let me know, I always have 2 or 3 kits on hand. You did say you run 98 octane fuel didn't you. Who knows I'm almost 40 maybe my clutch is starting to slip:laugh: Kidding aside this should work also, but you might have to use the med springs.....Chris
Larry thanks, i read your thread about ignition, i understand better now. But i would prefer to stick with my new original not adjustable vacuum advance. I don't want to spend for another new vacuum advance so i would like to try it with the one i have and according to Chris it should work with full vacuum. Yes, i use Octane 93 US, here that is 98 (unleaded). I don't want to race, just stock, i just want all advance in at 2000-2500 rpm with vacuum advance plugged and no ping. It works good with the hose, the hose is just as big as the biggest bushing from MSD, so that will be appr. 18 degr. crankshaft advance. The red steel 28 is better right?? But that pings set at TDC. And although the hose is softer then steel, the timing stays set, so that's fine with me. So i think i need to stay with the hose limiter bushing from here now and try to get it all in at 2000 rpm or 2500rpm. I need to know the most easy way to do so. I understand what Larry means now too. I just don't want to screw up too much. I just want to drive it with full advance more early like you both said. I need to go to the lighter springs now and make rpm up to 2000rpm and see what the highest point is. From there i don't know yet exactly.......hope it's easy from now. Chris/Larry, do you have a picture from the bushing that i should have factory original? Or do you know with how many degrees it's rated factory?......the hose is appr. 18 degr. crankshaft advance. Thanks both!
Chris, i would like to set it as you tell me. Do i have to make a second mark at my balancer to do this? Or how can i do it? How do i set the timing on 8*? Just as Larry described in his ignition thread? I think that's the only way to do it, am i right? P.S. i have three types of springs from an MSD kit to do it, but i need to know the stock bushing for my Riviera. (the appr. crankshaft degrees number stock bushing has).
Chris, Nothing wrong with your timing recommendations, but you can't apply them to any distributor. If you look at the specs for the various distributors used in Buick engines over the years, you'll see that they all had different amounts of mechanical advance built into them. If Robbie has the stock distributor in his engine, it has somewhere between 30 and 34* of mechanical advance. If that distributor came from the factory with a bushing, his mechanical advance would still be 30-34* If he sets his initial timing at 8*, his total will be between 38* and 42* That is why I advocate to set the total timing and let the initial fall where it has to. If Robbie had simply checked his total advance, he would have realized that he had way too much total advance and that the bushing must have fallen off if his initial advance was set to spec (TDC). MSD distributors use bushings to limit mechanical advance to different values, but I am not sure that they are compatible or will work in Delco Distributors.
Robbie, If you want to set the initial timing to 8*, you just disconnect and plug the vacuum advance, start the engine, hook up the timing light, and move the distributor until the stock mark lines up with 8* on the timing tab. The second mark is for measuring your total timing.
Larry, i will set my total timing and mark the balancer at 45mm from my stock mark. I will set it then on TDC. I will use the lightest set of springs to set total and afterwards i will install the medium 2000-2500 rpm springs. Stock springs is over 4000 rpm right? I will print your thread and take it to my car so i know what to do. Thanks a lot Larry.
Yes, stock springs will allow full advance at around 4600 RPM. Hopefully you understand how to check the total advance. I would set the initial to TDC, then check how much total advance you get like that. (Use the lightest springs to check the total) Be as accurate as possible with your 45mm measurement, even a small error can be significant.
Should i start measuring from the edge of the stock mark or in the middle of it? I will increase rpm turn my distributor and set the new mark at TDC when highest point is reached......that's all right? By the way Larry, does the bushing that i have installed now (hose piece) matter? Can i leave it like this? It is limited around 18 degrees now with this rubber hose.
You mentioned the stock vacuum advance can was replaced with a new stock one. Did the new one have a piece of rubber tubing over the pin that pulls the point plate? If not, you need to install that, and that will make the stock vacuum advance work correctly and not over time the engine. I small section of vacuum hose will do nicely. Ask Dave Ray (IgnitionMan, sparkman451@earthlink.net ) for his pictures on how to install the stop plate correctly if you go with the adjustable vacuum advance. Crane is the one to get, it has the most features. Regards, Milton
Milton, thanks. It does not have it, but it does not ping now with my hose piece installed advance limiter and vacuum can plugged. If i use a piece of vacuum hose on the pin of the vacuum can, i can probably use a smaller limiter bushing to allow more advance right???
Measure from the middle of the mark. Leave the bushing on. Don't loosen the distributor. Disconnect and plug the vacuum advance. Then Rev the engine until the NEW MARK stops moving upward. At that point it should be opposite some part of the timing tab. That NEW MARK is equal to 30* of timing. If it is lined up with the 0 on the timing tab, you have 30* total advance. If it is lined up with the 2, you have 32*. I want you to tell me where the mark stops moving. Can you do that?
Yes, i can do that. But first i am trying to set timing with the information Chris gave me. I need to learn piece by piece you know, i will let you know when my total advance is finally set around 2000-2500rpm.
Chris's advice, by his own description, worked on a 70 Electra distributor, which is VERY DIFFERENT from a 69 Riveria distributor. As Larry said, the 69 Riviera distributor has 30+ degrees of mechanical advance built into it, whereas the 70 Electra has about 24 degrees built into it. The difference is that the slot that the bushing moves in is bigger on the 69 distributor. So the set up that worked on the 70 Electra will not give the same results on the 69 Riveria. Please, set the total timing, as Larry advised. If you set a 69 Riviera distributor (with bushing installed) at eight degrees initial, you WILL have 38 or more degrees of total timing---PING!!!!!!,
:TU: Ping it will at 38 for sure. Chris was not talking about the 70 Electra only, he knows all about the 400/430 too....don't you worry about Chris giving me the right advice. If there's anybody.....it's Chris, that's for sure!:TU: Thanks to him i am driving with the lightest springs now, stock full vacuum can connected, distr. set @2 degr. before TDC and no ping ping. My car burns the tires off.......and it's only stock! Thanks:TU:
You guys kill me, you have no idea of the size of bushing I have recomanded him to use with his 69 distributor. I only posted the timing spec's not the size of the bushing or slot, hence the post 6 or 7 post ago, (Robbie I'll pm you) I was ONLY helping Robbie solve HIS problem before he ended up with his engine at the machine shop getting rebuilt. My point is I was only trying to help Robbie, I was not thinking about posting every bit of communication Robbie and I have made so that everyone else could anayze it. And yes the 1111335 69 430 slot is .035 bigger then the 1111984 (70 455) distributor. The last thing I was trying to do was confuse Robbie because of the language barrier here. Its not rocket science, I have different bushing sizes that I run with the different distributors due to the different slot sizes, and have done so for many many times over the last 25 years of play with BBB's and have had NO problem's repeating these spec's from distributor to distributor. Sorry guys I will try to post all the info next time or none at all so I don't confuse on lookers. I'm real bad at communicating what I mean on the internet sometimesou: Chris
Chris, you are doing an excellent job communicating on the internet! I only had a little English on school and even i know exactly what you mean. I think you read very well also, because YOU knew exactly what was going on. And the only way to do that is to read very "knowing". Sometimes i see people step in with advice (that i appreciate very much ofcourse) but they sometimes overlook some important posts.....no that big deal ofcourse, being spontanious is more important...don't get me wrong, it's hobby, we like it, i understand! I appreciate your help and anybody who helps is appreciated. Robbie
