Dear V-8 Buick Suspension experts, I have been nudged in another thread regarding my trusty 1965 Buick Special wagon to go with as stiff sway bars as I can fit to car. You can read those opinions here: http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.p...-quot-super-sized-quot-64-67-Special-Skylarks However, I have a friend with a 1971 Chevelle that has just been fitted with the stiffest sway bars available for that car and he reports that the car is much rougher when hitting them nasty potholes. Now he reports that the whole car is literally shaken on every bump. He recently had a chance to drive a comparable car - a 1970 El Camino without stiffened suspension - and admits some regrets to have stiffened the suspension so much. Now I assume most of you are in the same predicament as me. About the only place you won't find potholes is your own driveway! :rant: Do you experts have any thoughts on this? :Smarty: Is my friend mistaken or blaming the wrong components for the "pothole jerk?" He had quite a bit of work done on the suspension and he maybe incorrectly assuming the swap bars are causing the rough ride over potholes. My understanding was that sway bars shouldn't have any effect on the suspensions response to holes - right or wrong? Is there a way to get better handling without making the car really rattle your bones at every "depression" that makes us performance drivers - very depressed!! Cheers, Edouard :beer
I think a more important question is how the sway bars affect over and/or understeer. There is nothing more surprising than a car that will swap ends too easily, or a car that wants to go up and over the cloverleaf at 60 mph. I think I'd simply put the F41 pieces on Billy-goat and start experimenting from there. And if you're worried about potholes, trade Billy-goat for a Unimog.
There is no question that big sway bars will increase the ride harshness on a single wheel bump like a pot hole, because it adds to the spring rate in that situation. Big dips in the road will simply pivot the bar in the bushings, and have little if any effect on ride comfort. IMO, you need to ask yourself a very basic question. What is more important to you, the cushy soft Buick ride, or better handling? I don't even have to think about that one, I want crisp predictable handling. As far as I'm concerned handling capability is very important in a muscle car, and GM felt the same way as most were equipped with a HD suspension option. I have an old HO Enterprises 1 3/8" front bar with polyurethane frame and end link bushings. Out back, I have the HR Parts n Stuff rear bar, which has racing and handling benefits. The HR bar is much more effective than the stock type bar because of the way it mounts. I'm extremely pleased at the way my car handles. It also rides pretty well too. I say put the biggest bar you can find on your car. If ride is also a concern, use rubber bushings. That will help. That motor is going to surprise you with it's performance Edouard. You want the suspension to be up to the challenge.
I have an 1-1\4" bar from a '76 - '81 Trans AM. Car rides very nice in the city with potholes that literally swallow suspensions from the newer FWD cars. At time of install I was using a heavier spring...........can't recall the #. Changed the springs & all is good.
I believe other issues have contributed to the harsh ride of your Chevelle example. I would wager he has stiffer shocks and beefier springs with possibly stiffer bushings. Not my style. My personal motto is keep the swaybars stiff and the springs/shocks soft. The bigger the tire, the better it works. Other than massive potholes that I try to avoid at all costs, my car rides better than my 2003 Tundra or my wife's 2003 Pilot. Smaller potholes don't bother me and I do love my cornering. The bigger the tire, the less depth into a pothole you'll go unless it will swallow the whole car. Just my opinion.
Thanks for the good advice. (Re: Stiff sway bars vs. potholes) Dear Brad, Larry, Steve, Greg and V-8 Buick suspension experts, Thanks as always for the good feedback everyone! :TU: Well, I assume like everyone else, you desperately try to avoid potholes at all cost. However, I can't imagine the roads where you are are much better than in California. It is reaching the point where driving is distinctly unpleasant on those grounds alone. One of my reasons for asking is if those of you with stiffer suspensions are regretting it all because of the poor roads. At the moment my friend is but perhaps he'll get used to it. Actually, what I want is slightly different. I need a trustworthy tow vehicle that is comfortable enough for long trips. My understanding is that I need the sway bars every bit as much for that application. However, the goal isn't high speed or extreme cornering . . . . . . at least as long as there isn't some sort of racing event that involves pulling an Airstream travel trailer!! :laugh: Honestly, that is my suspicion too. Orinda Motors also did the suspension work on his Chevelle so I'll bug them and see if I can figure out which upgrade is having what effect. My friend basically gave Orinda Motors carte blanche to make him a great handling car and . . . . . . . . beware of what you wish for - you might live to regret it!! :eek2: One of the reasons for starting up this thread was to see if there are some clever win-win strategies to at least cope better with the poor roads we've got now-a-days without compromising handling. In my unique situation, I'm hopeful that suspension air-bags may help the ride situation when towing. I agree that choosing the springs and shocks carefully to match the sort of driving you are planning is very important. Larger tires also seems like a good idea. Is there anything related to the suspension components that I should investigate to give my trusty wagon a suitable advantage on our open roads that ain't as pristine as they were back in 1965? Thanks again everyone! Cheers, Edouard :beer
I think KB is on to something there, you should make sure your friend shares the whole package of what has been done to his chassis. And, I am sure a good friend will at least take you for a ride if not let you drive his car so you can experience the ride yourself. There are several books on the subjects such s "How to make your car handle" and if that isn't by Herb Adams, there is another one by him too. It is also a thought that you should be comfortable that too heavy a set of springs isn't selected for your car (compare wire dia and coil distance to stock. A good parts man will help you compare the sire dia specs to at least help your decision.) and should even consider using your stock springs and the HD sway bars as a baseline. My 64 still uses all 4 stock springs with the same engine/trans combo you have in your wagon. It sits just right for my taste using the 15" wheels I have on it. Remember your engine weighs about the same as a stock SB Chevy now, so a replacement spring for SB V8 chevelle wagon should be about right. Moog used to have a progressive rate station wagon spring for your car.
Hey there Edouard, I have heard that keeping the rubber bushings instead of going to poly bushings helps to keep the ride from being so harsh. Your friends Chevelle might have ended up getting all poly bushings. The only bushings I used poly on when rebuilding my front suspension were the sway bar links. I used stock coil springs and gas shocks, and I am pretty happy with it. May change to a larger sway bar later on. Best of luck on the wagon!
Thanks again. (Re: Stiff sway bars vs. potholes) Dear Adam, Michael, Mark and V-8 Buick suspension experts, Thanks again for all the good info! I agree that going with excessively stiff springs will definitely make me miserable. I think I'll have to take this project on in stages. First get the car running again and then look into how to make her able to deal with a heavy tow load. One of the reasons I keep leaning toward suspension air-bags is to avoid having very stiff springs to cope with the extra weight of the trailer. I really want the car to be enjoyable to drive when not on tow-duty. That is probably true, but the conventional wisdom is to go with the poly bushings because of the extra load associated with towing. I suppose I could stick to rubber and just inspect them frequently and replace them more often. I guess that is one I should think about. Oh well, more issues to consider! Cheers, Edouard :beer
I did polyurethane bushings once, and will never do that again. The damn things never quit squeaking, even after popping them all out greasing them and putting them back. Even with radials the car rode like a buckboard. Ripped them out, went with new rubber ones, all was well and never looked back. Duane
Use Del a lum. Tough as the front end of the 54-55 Buicks I owned. One wheel alignment for a lifetime. Just grease annually.
Re: Thanks again. (Re: Stiff sway bars vs. potholes) As far as I know, OEM has never used any urethane in any heavy-duty vehicle including trucks. I have some poly bushings and never an issue but don't think they are necessary for towing as much as maybe precision handling. New rubber should work just fine and prevent aggravating un-Buick like NVH .
