I have a question for TA performance and the rest of the buick community. If there was enough interest in people purchasing a set of the new aluminum stage one heads, would TA consider selling the new heads at a reduced cost? Basically, what I'm asking, is if the members of this board and the BPG, and whoever else, would pre-order a set of these heads, we quite possibly could provide the need for a larger producition run for TA. With the larger production runs, the per piece price would be lowered (economy of scale), and TA could still maintan their current profit margin on these heads. The benefit for the members would be lower prices on these heads. The benefit for TA, would be increased sales at the same profit level, known quantities before production, and good PR (every body likes to feel they are getting a bargin:grin: ). In addition, If people buy these heads they are going buy other parts to compliment these heads, which would as a result increase sales of other components. It seems like a win-win situation at first glance. I'm by no means an expert on this, and I was just curious if there was interest on either TA's part, and/or on the member part. Thanks Brett Schmahl
Stage or be Staged ? Hey Brett, Your concept makes perfect business sense. I often question why someone would buy aluminum Stage 1's, when they could have Stage 2's for a little more, with a direct change-over except headers. I do know that a powder coated set of aluminum Stgae 1's are STEALHY ! And, may go unnoticed in a muscle car shoot-out. I sincerely beleive Your question needs to be addressed...........have You contacted TA personally ? Jeff Kroeger 563-823-0664 jkalltheway7@mcleodusa.net
Discounting products from the start usually turns out to be a bad business practice....it's hard to get the price back up once you cut it..people hesitate to buy thinking the item will get cheaper again. Ask anyone running a business that primarily sells tangible and new type products(meaning something different or something offered for the first time).....If you can't get full price for them when they are a "new" item then your price is probably too high from the start. Have you priced Edelbrock heads for other brands (Olds would be a good example)...I'd say Mike is doing pretty well to be able to price these new heads in that area. For T/A to continue to offer new products they need to do one thing....make a profit, hopefully a GOOD profit, so they don't hesitate to invest there money in addtnl new products down the road. I like getting a good deal as much as anyone.....if you go to T/A and get turned down for a group discount how will you feel?? Is Mike now "holding us up" or "gouging" his biggest supporters?....I don't think so. Let these guys make some money...As I've said in other threads it's just a hobby to most of us...but for others it is a business...and without them this hobby would be a whole lot less fun. Businesses survive by making a profit, they thrive when they make more profit...that's what great about the system we operate under. THis is just my opinion and I'm not fronting for T/A...heck I think I bought a booster plate from them one time a few years back...that's it. Thanks Patton
Agree to disagree Patton: I agree with everything you said. However, two adages that have always held up in my life are: 1) It NEVER hurts to ask. 2) It is YOUR $$$. Who do you want to have it? You or them? My 2 cents.
David...I agree with you...but once again I want to emphasize something....if these guys can make good $$ then the products will keep coming...if they don't then forget it..no new products. Then, all the money you want to spend (at a discount or not) will be useless...there won't be any cool new products to buy. These days so many products are sold on the basis of price alone...usually because they are considered "commodity" products...PC's, most cars, clothes, etc. On non-commodity, or specialized or unique products, the "retailer" usually gets a premium over the commodity type product....either the quality is that much better or it's not available anywhere else....I'd say the T/A heads fit into the latter category....who else produces aluminum, aftermarket Buick performance heads??? Do they deserve to make more than the usual, discounted profit margins available to sellers of commodity products (for lack of a better comparison we'll use the usual suspect....Chevy aluminum heads)? I'm not trying to get into an argument here...just pointing out that I think those who can offer unique products should be rewarded...the "market" will tell us...these will either sell or they won't. You are right..it never hurts to ask....I just hope members won't feel slighted if Mike decides to "diplomatically" say no. He deserves the "first mover" advantage (for you tech type guys). Thanks Patton
Agreed Patton: Agreed on all points. If TA tactfully denies a petition for a group discount, then at least the group tried. Everyone recognizes TA's right to make reasonable margin, and wishes them continued success. However, anyone who knowingly pays more than they have to, is, well, different. I would imagine TA takes a similar approach with their vendors. (At least I hope they do )
David...agree with you on your points except "reasonable margin"....Does T/A have to tell us what they make so we can decide what's reasonable?? If he's making 10 times his money is that a "terrible thing"?...the value to the buyer is whatever the buyer will pay....If you decide to pay $1500 for heads then you must think that is what they are worth to you....I'm just using the 10X example as an extreme.....our "system" allows people to do that...at the risk of being undercut by competition. Look at "ebay"....All you ever hear is stories about how somebody bought item "X" at a garage sale or a salvage yard and resold it on ebay for a multiple of what they paid. Assuming no misrepresentations, that is fine with me....some items..those that are unique....will bring that kind of margin. I was just curious about your use of the words "reasonable margin"...thanks for reading and responding...This web board is a great thing. Patton
Reasonableness Patton: I believe the discussion is based on the premise that margins would stay equal based on efficiencies derived from economies of scale. Could those efficiencies be derived remains to be seen. Only TA knows. BTW - I agree this board is great place to share thoughts and points of view. :beer
The first thought that occurs to me, is that this should have been addressed directly to TA in a private email or phone call, rather than tossed out onto a bulletin board. You and I have no way of knowing what kind of margins TA will make on any new product they offer, and therefore no clue if they have room to negotiate a larger group purchase. The first offering of a product usually isn't a highly negotiable item, pricewise, since the business needs to recoup the investment to produce the product, before there are any "real" profits to be made.
A group discount can only be derived from a group. This is a group discussion. TA's margins are none of my business. Personally, I hope they make a mint. What I pay IS my business. Again, the premise is TA's margins would stay the same AND they will sell more units. Their answer would most likely tell us if their are additional efficiencies to be achieved. Go TA Performance! p
David G and David H....I figure someone will approach T/A...I won't since I have no need for these heads(at least not at this time)....I was stating my opinion or views regarding discounts on new items, etc...Thanks to both of you for your feedback....I better get off this computer and try to get some work done. Once again thanks guys. Patton
I can't argue with you on that one! However, I still feel the initial approach would have been better received via a personal email or phone call. Then it could be brought to public view if TA gave a positive response to the inquiry. Just my opinion, nothing more! o No:
Sounds good Work? ohhhhh chripes work:error: Nice talking to you both. I hope you both get some Aluminum in your stocking this yearp Later
To Patton Glade..... Hey Patton, I fully understand Your point of view and it's true. All I'm saying is that quantity discounts have been used and have worked in the past. Many companies still use this practice today, and I have MANY catalogs from industrial suppliers to back this up. I was not implying that maybe TA should sell them for $600 a set ! I believe that TA should be rewarded for their efforts & I want to see them continue to prosper. TA has done so much for the Buick community....Just think where We'd be without them ? However, the aluminum Stage 1 heads shouldn't have cost nearly as much as the Stage 2,3 & 4 heads, to produce. TA already had a standard head to use as a pattern. And, if You make a product and only sell ONE, You need a MILLION dollars for that one sold to cover Your research & development, tooling, production & advertising costs. If You sell a MILLION of them, You may only need ONE dollar per item. I'm just using these numbers to prove a point. Look at the small block Chevrolet......parts are soo CHEEP, bcuz there's a gazillion of 'em out there. SURE, Mike at TA has made the heads VERY competitive with the other head manufacturers......but I guess I'm with Stagedcoach 71.....in that it "never hurts to ask." This could be a "one time only offer", making it clear to others that the price will return to normal after this production run. Jeff
Slow down everyone. I didn't mean to start any arguments. I was just trying to float the idea of a group purchase of these heads.:grin: I want to clarify a few things, before I have anyone upset with me. I was in no way saying anything bad about TA performance. I've bought plenty of things from them in the past, I've reccomended plenty of people towards them, and I will buy more parts from them in the future. I think TA is a great buisness and I wish them well for many years to come. For a living, I'm an engineer at a medium sized manufacuter in the midwest. I build machinary/automation for a living. When I'm buying parts and negoitating prices, I ALWAYS try to find out at what level I can get a price break. This goes for commodity items such as bearings and steel, to high tech items such as servo drives that have never been on the market before. If you don't ask, you'll never know. That's all I'm trying to do here. Basically, all I want to know is if there is any support towards a group purchase of these heads. How many people would be interested? I have not contacted TA about this yet, due to the fact that I have no idea if it is even feasible due to the number of people interested. I placed it on the website so everyone could see it, including anyone from TA. For all I know, no one may be interested or TA may not be interested. It's just a FRIENDLY:grin: discussion right now. I hope that clears up any misunderstanding. Thanks Brett Schmahl
Re: Sounds good :eek2: :eek2: Not any aluminum in my budget... :error: ou: Hey Brett, of course it's a friendly discussion...that's the only kind we have here! :TU:
Jeff is right though,i`d think the Stage 2 heads should`ve been alot more than the Stage 1`s,have you ever checked the price of a set of Aluminum Indy heads for Mopars to see how much they cost assembled with valves and stuff?they cost $2,000 complete with locks,stainless steel valves,seals,springs to match your cam,and oiling system set up,and this is Indy heads for Mopar wich i think aftermarket parts for mopars as as close to Buick in prices than any other car company. Thanks
Guys, Very little of anything from existing castings went into the STG 1 alum head. More pre-production developement work went into the 1's than the original sets of 2's. Apples and Oranges boys... Just because they fit the same motor, and share an intake port design, does not mean they are the "same". If you really want to know what it took to make this head, then call TA, ask for Mike, and have at least 1/2 an hour for him to tell you everything that was done, to eliminate all the disadvantages of the iron heads, especially when it comes to the water jacket areas, which were heavily modified to allow for all kinds of porting. That is the number one restriction in the iron stuff... you can't even put seats in the iron heads half the time, as you run into water. That's why it took so long to get this head to market. IF there were 1/2 as many Buick guys to sell stuff to as Mopar guys, we would have Mopar pricing. But there is not.. Mopars are about as common as Chevies these days in drag racing circles, and the Indy stuff is selling to that market. It's only on the street stuff that there are more Chevys. JW ....
Yes,i agree but think of it,if its cheaper there will be more sales,more demand,if its like $2500+ someone will think twice to buy a set cause they are so expensive,am i making sense? Thanks
I will not directly address the group purchase issue, because even I do not know what the profit margin is. I dare to say that it is probably below industry standards, due to the diligence necessary to maintain quality control on such a product and the time it takes to manufacture the part, plus the R&D time. I don't think a group purchase is a bad idea, but one thing I do know is that we put a full page ad in the BPG newsletter and the response was less than expected. We pulled the ad from the GSXtra because the response did not justify the effort and a few other issues also. Ok, back to what I wanted to address. With out doing the actual math and not knowing details about other head manufacturers. It is MY conclusion that the only ones paying too much for parts are the more popular brands such as the Chevy and Mopar. Yes, there are some dirt cheap parts for the Chevy in particular, but the quality and performance are not there. I believe that a comparable (to the TA Stage 2) set of BBC or Mopar heads are right around $1800 - $2000 a set of Stage 2 heads for the Buick are $2350. The production numbers of these heads are probably 30 times or more than the Buick. Again, not knowing a lot about other head manufacturers, I would imagine that the TA product is in the very top percentile of quality, craftsmanship and function. I know the Car Craft guys really liked them. I've seen a Donovan block for a SBC (I have no idea what the price is) but compared to the TA V6 block it looked like a 5 dollar piece of scrap aluminum. Dave
