Would any of you leave the damage to this paint that was down to primer alone if it was your car and you had to drive the car rain or shine? No. Also I would never present a fraudalent amount of damage by making it worse. My personal estimate was not for ME to do the job, by the way. I have had bodywork done before and was actually trained to do it by a pro in a pro shop. I might be off on my guesses here, but no matter how you slice it, the 250 bucks they cut for my check will not return ther panel to the condition it was in before the damage. In my opinion, which is not a professional's but is nonetheless informed and objective, it would cost 360 dollars to fix this...which means I am 110 dollars out of pocket. I appreciate the advice about the buffing, but won't you have to buff the plastic and paint off so you can see if my paint undersneath is damaged? In my opinion, if you want to fix the damage, you must buff that out and see if the paint underneath is damaged. I am not saying that my standards are higher than any of the pro's here. I am saying that I wouldn't make the repair until I saw what the repair needed to be, and that involves looking under the other car's paint and plastic
Chris, Not trying to swell your nads, but arguing with the guy isn't going to help. I could definately agree that he may be off and I don't think that $360 is unreasonable, depending on the labor rate in your area. As far as polishing to check for more damage, if you can't a wave or dent in the reflection then there's most likely no metal damage. Could it be scratched or chipped under the scuffs, possibly. But those issues are null soon as the painter preps the panel. If you plan on bringing it to the body shop for repairs, let them worry about costs. That's their job to get the proper amount. Although the appraiser probably appreciates where you're coming from, insulting him is definately not going to help. "You catch more bees with honey than crap!" When you buff the scuffs and scratches before the appraiser sees the car, you've greatly reduced the area of damage to just the remaining damage which looks less offensive. In a crime scene, you don't clean up the area before the cops get there and investigate. All clues help, so removing the rest of the damage doesn't help. Go over the estimate with the shop and let them determine how far off this guy is. There may be some small things that he didn't cover that do add up.
Hey Chris, Have you taken the car to have your own estimates done to it? From the most reputable body shops to MACO. That way you have more of an idea of what sorta repair the $200 would get you. If it doesn't come to that, then tell the girl you are gonna file a small claims case against her for the $360. It will cost you about $50 to file, and if you win, she pays for your cost in court as well. Most likely she will not want to get into all that and will see your $360 as being a fair price. I have done quite a bit of body/paint, and it can be done for $200.... but in my opinion, not correctly. By the way, thats the same color I am getting ready to spray mine! Wanna go in on some paint? p Good luck! -Jon
Chris, The appraiser should of given you a list of Mass registered shops that will do the work for the amount specified. If more work is needed the shop you choose from the list (quite extensive) calls the insurance co. for a reappraisal. Sounds like you P^$$&) him off. Steve
That's what I said. Take it to the shop that is going to repair your car and let him get with the appraiser to set a price. It's very common for a shop to call for a supplement. Don't waste your time going to other shops for estmates. Most won't give you one if they suspect that an insurance co. is involved. They'll tell you to get the ins. estimate and they'll work from there. Writing an estimate for an insurance job is a waste of time to them because they know that the ins. estimate will be the one to go by. One other factor involved, is the car base/clear or single stage? Makes a difference. Get with your body shop and let him handle it. Also, I don't know about where you live, but here it's illegal for an ins co to make you bring your car to a certain shop or one from "their" list. If he tells you that "so and so" can fix it for this, you don't have to accept that if that's not who you're going to use.
I understand, beleive me. I also know that arguing with him (I had originally called to ask how he arrived at about 200 bucks, and he pulled the old "I'm a pro, that's why" routine with me) won't help me. I actually did not insult the man, I'm not sure where that came from. He started on me with his foolishness first. Whatever he got after that was of his own making. He questioned my ability to appraise damage, and I told him that I question his in reply. BUT- I really feel that one thing wrong with a lot of the way business, any business, is run is that nobody sticks up for themselves anymore. When this guy is totally out in left feild in my estimation-which I feel is at least as valid as his estimation- then I call up and ask to clarify. I aksed him to tell me how he arrived at that figure. He hemmed and hawed a little. that tells me he just did a quick and dirty job of it- I was his last appraisal on a hot Friday. He did a sloppy job in my opinion, so I called him on it. I do not just lay there and let them do whatever they want to. Maybe if enough people called him on his judgement, he would take more care in his appraisals. As far as the car repairs being made by me already go, I don't know if everyone understands this, but this car is a daily workhorse. It is not registered half the year to be out on nice days only. It sees rain all spring summer and fall. It is like other folks' Chevy Cavaliers or Toyota Camrys, except I care for the car much much more thoroughly. I couldn't just let this primer (the primer was applied by me in this area and I am 100% sure it was not a sealer/primer) and probably some exposed metal be subjected to rain for a week or so until the shop fixes it. I just can't allow it to be damaged further. The car is not garaged, and it is not kept out of rain. It rained the day after I made the repairs and it rained today. I cannot go rent a garage to store the car when it rains, and then walk the 12 miles to work if it's damp out, or go and buy and register another car for when this car is stored out of the rain. This was a calculated risk that I gladly took and will take again if this happens again. It was a no-brainer- I weighed the consequences of both fixing it and of leaving it, and leaving it was the greater risk both for my peace of mind and my checkbook in the long run. I would rather rip up the check the insurance company gave me and fix the whole thing out of pocket than risk a rust problem there. I have enough rust to deal with! Reynold, I hope you understand that I apprciate the time and advice you are giving me. It's hard to convey that sometimes on the forums so I want to make that clear.
Steve- you don't understand I think. maybe you missed this part of the story, but the appraisal was already done when I called him and we had our little conversation- and I cannot stress just how much he purposely started with his "I'm a pro that's why" garbage. I'm a grown man, and that kind of condescending attitude really can't fly with me. Making him mad or giving him a bouquet of flowers at this point has no effect on the appraisal he did five days earlier. I hope I did p!ss him off, by the way.
My mother got sideswiped on the highway, at speed, recently and her insurance wanted to pay $500 and use tiawanese parts on a 1999 tahoe. I had it taken to a shop where when it became an issue, we won out and they paid. here is what I learned from the incident: Even if you are the most skilled bodyman on the planet, take the car to a shop. Why? because when you elect to do the work yourself the insurance company gets into a defensive position as there is more of a chance of insurance fraud. Plus the ins company doens't want to pay the sweat equity of the car owner so it will offer you materials. Before ever letting the adjuster see the car, if you are dead set on doing the work yourself I would get five (two should be enough if they are close but I like overkill) estimates from reputabel shops and make sure the estimates are within $50-$100 of each other. That way if they start in on this bull of lowballing you you can say well here is what so-and -so will charge we can go through them instead, which means the worst case scenario is somebody else does the work. Finally anytime you have a conversation with the adjuster follow it up with a letter detailing the conversation, this way if there is a legitimate dispute you can go to their supervisors. In new york you can tape conversations and I try to do it as often as possible. If you didn't get at least one written estimate from a shop, I hope you saved all of your recipts for materials so you can get the cot of them back at least, as you'll probably have a fight with them on the labor. hope this helps. by the way the apprasial is not final until you accept the check from them and in some states if you have a dispute with the ins company and they don't want to pay you can have them pay for a lawyer to represent you against them (this has it's own restrictions that vary also). The ins payout is always negotiable until you cash the check.
Guys remember that the appraiser works for the insurance company and it is his job to look out and get the best deal for the insurance company.The girl hit your car and she or her insurance company must repair your car to before status. By working on the car yourself the insurance probable thinks you are not going to have repair done and will pocket the money so they are trying to settel as cheaply as they can.
Rusty, Geeto- you have valid points. But your understanding of the chain of events is incorrect. In order for the insurance company to become defensive or think that I am trying to pocket the money, they must see the car after I have done the work. Also there is a hint of the suggestion coming about that I am trying to do something shady here. I will not even reply to that notion as it disgusts me. In regards to the insurance company thinking I am pocketing the money or doing something less than honest- This has not happened. The work was done by me after the appraisal. The timing of the events is wrong to make these concerns a problem. The car was damaged, then it was appraised, then it was repaired by me- and that's it The reasons I did the work have been stated by me and I do not mind if anyone disagrees with my reasoning. But understand very well that this isn't your car- it is mine and I have some experience with a few things, just like anyone else. However, I do not think I need to explain myself further or go on the defensive here. I am not mad at anyone here, nor do I think anyone here is on my case. That said, the tone of the entire thread has devolved into scenarios where I am almost at the point I have done something wrong or given my insurance company a reason to suspect my motives. That is NOT the case. If it is unclear as to what has happened, please take a moment and re-read the thread. If anything is unclear after that, please ask me to clarify. I am not trying to 'win' the thread here.
Chris I don't think I am trying ti insinuate that you are doing anything wrong here. It is totally your right to repair your car and I am behind you on that all the way, but I can tell you the insurance company doesn't see it that way they are used to working with one scenario (somebody brings it to a shop) and anything outside the scenario is suspect to them, which naturally makes them defensive to the situation from the first time you are telling them you are repairing the car. I dont understand what you mean by: "In order for the insurance company to become defensive or think that I am trying to pocket the money, they must see the car after I have done the work" The insurance company (actually the people in charge of your claim) can think what ever it wants when ever it wants, it doesn't have to see your car after the work to suspect you of anything. I have never heard of an adjuster inspecting the work on a car after the work is finished. If you think there is a real problem, I could call your claims rep and your insurance rep and say "I have a legitimate problem here". Really I don't know where you are right now with the insurance company, but if you have taken their check and cashed it pretty much that's it you got paid for your work and it's done. However, if you all you have is an offer from the adjuster then you still have some leeway to negotiate the price with them, but from what it sounds like you already repaired the damage so I don't really know how you are going to prove what the job costs outside of your reciepts for materials (which the insurance company pays wholesale for only). Look all I was trying to do was tell you how to protect yourself when you think the ins company is giving you a raw deal. The secret is to document everything, and it doesn't pay to go rushing off to do repairs when things are not settled with the adjuster because you then lose the ability to prove the job is worth what you say by getting a shop to give an estimate. AS far as steve's suggestion is concerned he is right on point in that the insurance companies have a list of shops they work off of and if he gives you an apprasial you can ask for a shop that will do the work for his appraisal, if no shop agrees to do the work for that amount then basically the adjuster is stuck and will haev to give you a new figure. Also I have never heard of a body shop that begins to do the work before they have come to an agreement on the value of the job with the insurance company Finally, you don't want to piss these guys off - you need them to work with you not against you. An insurance company is the champion of your interests but when you interests begin to differ from theirs there is a legitimate dispute that can be worked out in a friendly manner or with lawyers, if you piss them off then you close off the friendly manner of resolving the dispute. I'm not saying the adjuster acted in a proper manner on the phone either, but that is why he has a supervisor you can speak to. Nobody is insinuating that you did anything wrong here, but I'll say it flat out, you may not have a good grasp on how a modern insurance company works in your area. I am also gonna say that by reparing part of the damage yourself you may have closed off your ability to get an appraisal later, and in effect kind of screwed yourself. The fact of the matter is that you yourself are not a licensed shop and while the insurance company does have to pay you the reasonable value of your work they do not have to take your word for it when you are both the claimant and the repairer. Now it sounds like you are still in negotiations with the ins company about the value of the work so all is not lost, just be smart about this and when you can document everything.
Over dramatized! Unless it says RELEASE on the area where you sign the check, it's still an open claim. You sign a release separate from the check. That's why bodily injury claims issue the check for the car first to get it repaired THEN when the injury claim is complete another draft is issued to cover the rest of the claim and finally a release is signed. These are some of the biggest myths of body repair. I can promise you an insurance co could care less if you fix your car yourself. Their job is to put you in pre loss condition or as close as possible to it. Sweat and equity is paid for in labor hours and part prices. Getting estimates is one sure fire way of telling the appraiser that from get go you don't think he knows his job. Also, even if he looks at the estimates, he's NOT going to pay you from one. I've had more estimates from shops thrown in my face from owners who don't even know what's on the estimate that they're handing me. I was given one today from a man with an '04 GMC P/U. The shop had a $500 alum. wheel on the estimate. The wheel wasn't even aluminum, it was steel. Price difference? $370. There were a few other things that were on both estimates that were OBVIOUS mistakes. The owner of the truck even agreed after I showed him. So getting copied estimates shows the appraiser that the shops didn't even look at the vehicle. I would venture to say that 60% of the time, the owner tells me "The shop's estimate is cheaper". If the owner is concerned as you are Chris, I'll take the time to explain in great detail where the prices come from. Usually, the shop missed something or didn't pay as close attention to detail as I did. I've had discussions with people just like your situation Chris. Most didn't even care what I was paying for and didn't have a clue how much the repair would actually cost, they just wanted more money. And I hear the same thing, "How do you know what it costs? You work for the insurance co." True, but (1) I've got more body/paint experience and training than most of the shops that I do business with. I also write over 4000 estimates a year, so writing an estimate isn't new to me.(2) I am fortunate enough to work for a co. who preaches religiously to us to write it to be fixed the right way! I couldn't give a crap less about a cutting a corner to save the co. money. I'm going to pay to fix it the way it's supposed to be fixed. Not by just my opinion, but the shops as well. The beauty of my job is that I go to many, many shops. Some with a lot more experience and state of the art equipment than others. If I'm in a shop that I feel isn't fixing it right, maybe it's because they just don't know another way. That's when I'll step in and show them repair ideas from another shop who's repair methods are more up to date with the industry. I don't proclaim to know it all, in fact, I expect to learn something new everyday. If I show someone a better way to fix something from an experience that I've seen or witnessed, then that shops customers will benefit from now on. My job is to make sure that the car is repaired to industry standards if not better. The cost isn't the issue, the REPAIRS are the issue. If I wrote an estimate that a car was repaired by and neglected to pay a shop to do a certain repair properly, I AM RESPONSIBLE for the improper repair. If I did pay for it and the shop didn't do it, now who's the bad guy? Appraisers are supposed to work together WITH a shop to acheive a QUALITY repair. It's not , the shop , the appraiser/adjuster, and you in the middle. You would not believe how many shop estimates I see daily that don't have all the necessary ingredients for a proper repair. It would astound you. Chris bring the car to your shop and let them review the estimate. They'll handle the supplement for you. That's their job. This guy may or may not know what he's doing but you shouldn't let it get under your skin. As long as you get your car fixed right to your satisfaction, who cares what the cost is? End of rant.:beer
Chris,Please do not think I was saying you might be doing something shady;my point was that if the insurance felt you would not be taking the car to a body shop for the repairs that they might be able to settle with you for less money than a body shop.I think that $200.00 would not get the car repaired at almost any bodyshop.It is also unlikely that just the quarter panel alone could be painted and color would match,most likely the door will have to be blend painted as well.I think if you continue to demand more money for the repairs that the insurance company will meet your demands because 1] $200.00 truely is not enough money for the repair 2}The repair total is not a large claim for the insurance co. Also even if you pocketed the money and id no repairs at all to your car that is your right as thier client damaged your car and they must pay you for that damage you may do as you like with the money if car is paid for and no leans against it.Good luck with getting full payment that you deserve.
rh455 From your rant, I understand your frustartion with the business,I am also in the business but on another end. The way insurance works is different in every state, which I'm sure you know. I will say this, When I was living in New Orleans The business was just as you described it, the adjusters were absolute professionals and very knowledgeable. I had the misfortune of being in a wreck in New Orleans myself and let me tell you the adjuster from my insurance company was a pleasure to work with there. The same cannot be said for New York, the wreck involving my mother's truck with the same insurance company was an absolute nightmare. One of the approved shops happend to be owned by a guy who I have know for years because I used to work for a supplier that delivered to him. The adjuster lowballed the estimate, insisted on using cheap taiwanese parts inplace of the GM NOS stuff to the poitn where he began insisting we take the car to another shop or at least get estimates from other shops in the area. I should never have to remind an adjuster more then twice (I had 4 phone conversations with him, the shop had another three) that it was written into tthe policy that the policy holder is entitled to OEM replacement parts if they are requested and OEM parts were damaged (you can't replace aftermarket with OEM). He was a completely frustrating person to deal with. Recently (6 months ago) I took a job in New which I am sometimes involved in the mediation of disputes between insureds and the insurance company. A lot of the disputes I see are because of the adjuster making unreasonable requests that go outside of the policy. What I typically see these days is that the shops doing insurance jobs won't begin work on the car until any disputes between the adjuster and the insured and the shop are worked out. Furthermore most shops these days if they discover added damage will have to call the insurance company for authorization to repair the damage or else the insurance company will not pay. Your job sounds like the wya it should be but you have to remember not everybody works for you compnay and isn't in your state (louisiana insurance laws favor the insured).
I don't think anyone at all is saying I'm doing anything shady, but like I said, that's where the gist of things is getting headed I was just getting a little frustrated that it seemed like everyone is reading way too much into some of this stuff and confusing what had happened with what hasn't- yet I ahve bad days like anyone else and i didn't mean to imply anyone was saying those things about me- just that that's what is seems to be headed to. But as far as my repairing the damage goes, I'll sayit once more and then never again: I have explained that over and again. I knew the risks and i took them. I don't need anyone agrreing with me on that point but I will not spend time defending it as it was my choice, and one I made with the knowledge of potential consequences. In any case, the check is sitting right here, in it's envelope, unsigned and undeposited. I will be taking the car around to shops suggested by the insuracne company and I will see if they will paint the quarter properly for 250 bucks. Maybe they charge less if the check is from the ins. Co? I don't know, all I know is that my cam and heads are on backorder and now I'm completely car frustrated. I'll be doing brake work on it this weekend too- ever really not want to work on your car?
Gee I certainly agree that New York is the 'odd ball out' state when it comes to collision repair. During 17 years with this company, every meeting or seminar that I've been to regarding insurance or collision repair ALWAYS had a disclaimer during the course......blah, blah,blah......except in New York. Blah, blah, blah,.....except in New York. These were meetings and seminars with guys from all around the country including Canada. I don't know why N.Y. has gotten so far off the path from the rest of the country. I've noticed that over the last few years, that there's been a transplant of N.Y. body shop owners moving to Fla. Go figure. I've had a few turn up here in New Orleans. Right away we have to have the "come to Jesus" talk about nobody's gonna bully anybody. I don't dish the bull and I certainly don't take it. In Chris' case, he's not in N.Y. and he certainly shouldn't have to take B/S from an adjuster or shop. Both should be trying to please him. Chris I never thought for a minute that you were up to anything. I merely saying that the shop will act on your behalf to get your car fixed properly at the right cost. You shouldn't be the one dealing with this or even worrying about it. It's not going to cost you anything. There's laws regarding that. Believe it or not, the appraiser is an expert at his job so is the bodyman. You need both to get the car fixed right. When you take it to your shop, it's not going to suprise him that the estimate is shy, because that's what he does for a living. He'll get with the appraiser and "adjust" the price. You can have 3 different guys look at it and come up with 3 different prices. The possibility of blending does exist so does a few other things depending on the painters capability. These are things that can drive up the price, but you won't know til the shop goes over it. I'll say it again, I wouldn't waste time (yours and the shops) by taking it to the repair shops that the ins co refers you to. Take it to the shop YOU want to go to. I don't care if people show me estimates from 10 shops. I'm concerned with the shop that's doing the work and writing an estimate with them. Another word I don't like is "Agreed Price". It's called an estimate and it's subject to change, no matter who wrote it. An estimate is an open door until the job is done to your satisfaction. Is it fair to have to go to somewhere to get the proper estimate only to have your shop not be happy because he wasn't involved?
I really should have worded that post differently, I'm sorry i didn't re-read it to make sure it didn't sound accusatory
