I've had a bunch of requests for pics of the intake with Fuel Injection. Check out: http://deekster.homeip.net/~derek/bob455/Bob455.html -Bob Cunningham
Bob, What intake is that? Who did put the holes in the intake for the fuel injectors? What size injectors did you use? Where did you get the info for mapping of fuel curves,etc? What about the electronic module for running the system?
Carl- That is the TA SP-1 intake. I had that for a while before I had it converted to FI. TA has a service where they can provide the manifold all set up for injection, however mine was done by a company in Florida- Force Fuel Injection (www.force-efi.com). The nitrous bars were installed by Top Gun. Those are 36# injectors, and they run about 72% duty cycle on my engine (about 450 HP). For electronics, I use the SpeedPro system (now called FAST). I love it, and it makes tuning a breeze. I did all the mapping myself- once you figure out the software, it is not hard. It does take some time- you have to drive on the highway for a while, on some back roads for a while, take some trips down the dragstrip, etc., but after that your whole curve will be mapped out. -Bob Cunningham
Bob, If 450 hp is 75% duty cycle, am I safe to assume that the system can support over 600 hp? Is the throttle body big enough to run more hp? Can I also asume that you are running a closed fuel system loop system with a/f sensor to run around 14.6 a/f for idle and cruising modes? What other sensors are used - throttle position, crank, inlet air, etc? What and where is the electric fuel pump located? I also take it that this is a speed density system - measuring air through the throttle body to determine the a/f requirements? Inquiring minds want to know! You said - "It does take some time- you have to drive on the highway for a while, on some back roads for a while, take some trips down the dragstrip, etc., but after that your whole curve will be mapped out." If you have a closed loop system - part of the system is learned. The rest of the modes like w.o.t would have to be calibrated by you - I am sure that took some time to get the max power during the whole curve.
Carl, The system can support a lot more than 600HP! All I need to do is install larger injectors. For instance if I wanted to add a blower (which I do when I get the $$), all I have to do is move to 42# or 50# injectors. Or if you want to make mega HP, you can get 72# injectors, 83# injectors, 96# injectors, or even 160# injectors! All you do is change one number in the control system and it adjusts the injector pulse width (PW) automatically. I could even install 96# injectors right now if I wanted, but they would only run at like 30% duty cycle. As a rule, you want to size your injectors so you don't exceed 85% duty cycle. The only limitation right now is that the system cannot really handle more than 30# of boost- so if I wanted to put 30 PSI from a turbo or blower, I would need to band-aid some stuff (besides my block would have blown apart a long time before that)! The system comes with a wideband oxygen sensor which has two purposes. First, it helps you tune your VE tables (the tables which correlate manifold pressure to air/fuel flow). Second, in closed-loop mode, it will make adjustments to the injector puslewidth so that the actual a/f fuel ratio matches your desired A/F ratio (according to the A/F ratio table which you control). I have it set for about 14:1 for idling, 14.8 - 15.0:1 for highway driving, and 11.8:1 for WOT. In my car, I have taken so much time to fine-tune my VE tables that I no longer require my WB oxygen sensor- therefore I have taken it out to preserve it (they are expensive). The system does not use a mass airflow sensor- it only uses a manifold pressure sensor. It calculates the amount of air based on manifold pressure and RPM, according to the VE table. This is a "speed density" system. Other sensors are a TPS (Throttle Position Sensor, used for adding "acceleration enrichment" like an accelerator pump), it uses the pickup in the distributor (to know RPM and when to fire each spark plug), a temperature sensor (for things like warm-up enrichment), a MAP sensor (senses pressure / vacuum in the intake manifold), a voltage sensor (internal in the system, to make adjustments to the calculation of injector opening speed), and an air temperature sensor. There is also a knock sensor, but I haven't connected mine yet. My fuel system is not done right. In order to do it right, you should have your gas tank modified for an internal pump. I have a patchwork system with an external pump, and I have burned up lots of fuel pumps over the years although I have had better luck recently since I changed my filter arrangement. Rock Valley is a company which can build a whole tank from scratch, and that's how I plan to change things when I get the chance. Tuning for racing isn't hard- I could probably get a car to "just about" right within about 3-4 runs down the track. Frankly the road tuning can be much more of a pain! A dyno is even a better help, because instead of looking at just ET, you can tune for different A/F ratios during different part of the torque curves, based on feedback from the dyno. The dragstrip only gives you a single number, and it is hard to tell if an engine wants to run slightly richer or leaner at different RPMs. I don't know what you've heard about the self-learning systems, but in my opinion they don't really work. The option does exist in my software but it is not very accurate, you are better to do it manually. -Bob C.
Sorry to butt in here, but if a guy was to plan on putting in a procharger, and want to incorperate the fuel injection system, what would you advise? This would be for my street/strip car. So you could teach the system so it will save fuel on the freeway, and kick it at the race track? Do you have to teach the computer each time, or program it and go?
You aren't butting in at all! This is a public forum! Anyhow, adding a blower is as easy as falling off a log. A single program will handle all conditions. The only time you might have to make a change is if you want to take a long trip and take off the blower belt. Then you would need a second program (since the engine would behave slightly differently, but not a lot) and it would take about 30 seconds to load. The tuning tables contain settings for all conditions- sometimes you be running high vacuum (i.e. highway driving) and sometimes you will be under boost (i.e. at the track or when you see a Mustang), but a single program handles all of that. Frankly, the fuel injection setup is perfectly matched for a blower application! You will get tons of power and great drivability too. Right now, for what its worth, I have 4 different programs- one for 87 octane (low timing), 89 octane, 93 octane, and "track fuel" (the only thing that changes is the timing, and at the track the fan on/off temperature changes too). -Bob C.
Bob, I really like the idea of fuel injection and the advantages that it has over a carb - driveability, etc. I take it that the system that you are using "automatically" adjusts for altitude changes? Realistically with the hardware, modifications that are needed for the system, what would the cost be to install on someone's car if they mapped it themselves? I guess I better start saving!
Since the system only really relies on the pressure inside the manifold, then a higher altitude will create less pressure at WOT. Virtually no difference, otherwise. Cost- that is the killer. To duplicate my system (but get a better fuel system) is probably $6,000. That includes everything- fuel pump ECM, injectors, braided fuel line, throttle body,and the works. (If you try to do a system for less than that, I bet that by the time you add up all of the stuff required I bet you are close to that anyhow!) My initial cost was $4000, but that didn't include things like braided fuel line and the other fuel system mods, or the knock sensor that I bought afterwards. If you are thinking about it for gas mileage savings, it will be a LOT of miles before you save $6000 worth of gas! -Bob C.
fuel Just a thought, if your running 11.8:1 on a N/A car, your WAY too rich. WAY to rich. You should ideally be in the neighborhood of 12.8-13.2:1 If your blown, you should be right around 11.8:1 to 12:1 airfuel. Your right, cruising with moderate throttle you can run a lot leaner 15:1 and greater. Also, you never really want to be more than 80% duty cycle, not 85%. I ran a Procharged 93 Mustang and made 540 rwhp and 518rwtq on a 331 with 8 psi! I used 50#/hr high impedence injectors and datalogged an 84% duty cylce. So I will tell you from experience that 42/hr injectors WILL NOT support 600 HP. They are almost completely maxed out at 490-500 rwhp. You have to keep in mind that as the bigger you go in injectors like 96#/hr no matter how much you adjust pulsewidth, it will have limited streetablity in terms of idling, cold weather starting and such. Smaller injectors are better for the street and street driving. Cold starting with a big injector can be tricky cause you can flood the motor. If you are going from an N/A setup to a blown setup, then based on the amount of boost you are running, you need a MAP sensor that can handle the amount of boost 1 bar, 2 bar, 3 etc... You also need to take out timing based on boost as well. You can setup a table such as timing vs boost and pull timing out per # of boost. If you do not know what your doing, you will blow your rods outside of you block real quick. An N/A motor is a LOT more forgiving than a blown or turbo charged motor. Be careful on saying how easy it is, especially if someone has never done fuel injection before. Turbo motors are even trickier than a centrifigal blower. Nice setup though!!!! The FAST is a nice setup. I am building a 01 Saleen with a 98 DOHC cobra motor stroked to 5.0L, cams (4), and ported heads and a D1SC pushing 20 +#'s of boost for a customer right now. I am contemplating running a FAST or a GEN 7 DFI. The BIG STUFF 3 engine management is the cats ass of engine management for a speed density based system. The FAST system is becoming out dated. Many top teams are turning in their FAST systems for the Big Stuff 3. Only problem is that these systems are hard to run with COP ignition systems. Big stuff 3 will have this ability in a month. Oh one last thing, never just leave your Wideband in your exhaust, you will damage it. Just use it when tuning, never for just starting it up, driving it and parking it. You can get them at ANY volkswagen dealership for around 69.00 bucks. VW's actually use a wideband O2 stock! Take care.
DOH! You are right- I actually haven't looked at my table in a while and you are right. I'm around 12.5:1. 12.8:1 worked best on the dyno, but for some reason I run just a smidge better at 12.5:1 at the track. Maybe for some fancy ignition systems, but for the Buick world I can't imagine a scenario where it won't work as well as anything else. Besides the FAST that has been around for several years is being replaced by the XFI (as I'm sure you know) which presents a lot more options for ignitions. The changes seem to be evolutionary, not revolutionary. BTW for those who don't know, BS3 is the "Big Stuff 3" system put out by John Meany (spelling?), who I think also was the original inventor of the FAST system. My understanding is that there are a lot of similarities, and that would probably work equally as well on our Buick motors. Other people like the Accel DFI Gen 7, but that is not my preference. -Bob C.
tuning VW gets a way with it because the sensor is constantly fed a voltage signal (12v to the heater). It is always powered up. If you leave a wideband O2 in the exhaust with out being powered, it can get contaminated and damaged. Your right though, hell the FAST system for a Buick is way kick ass. There is no reason why you need to run ANYTHING else. From experience, dyno tuning to road tuning can be way different. I totally agree with you 100%. Tune your car for the track and not the dyno. Whatever makes it run best at the track, do that. I noticed on my Mustang, I have to tune for weather conditions. Not because a force fed car is less tempermental than an N/A car, but on a cool night (60 degree) I saw intake air temps of 93 degrees with 8 lbs of boost through my intercooler. Now on a 100 degree day, high humidity, I would see temps around 140-150. Obviously tuning needs to be done there a bit different otherwise a slight lean condition could occur in cold weather. Anyways, way to go! Way to pioneer something for the Buick crowd! I really like your setup! I am busy building my 68 GS. Then next year the mustang goes back together with the NEW parts in my SIG! Lots of fabricating to do. My Buick has sat for 3 years untouched. It is time to get it back on the road. Hey keep me posted on how your project is coming along, I like reading the "techy" posts. Take care, Sebastian
Very nice setup bobc455. Here's another option for fuel rails: http://www.rossmachineracing.com/extrusion.html I got some of their fuel rail(the bigger size of course :Brow: ) to use when I convert one of my 430 intakes over to EFI and run it off a megasquirt. Here's a place with fuel rails that have the grooves: http://injector.com/fuelrails.php I got the other type because it was bigger and cheaper. Both are very resonably priced in my opinion.
Thanks for the links on the fuel rails. I will also be MegaSquirting my 455 in the Regal. It will be my second car equiped with MS. I have been playing with MS FI in my 88 Chevy pickup. http://community.webshots.com/album/143609563JsJMpB Supernova455
I've searched through your site before. I got the idea of using a quadrajet as a throttlebody from you. Although I decided to go a different direction at this point. I also have another megasquirted car. I run it controlling fuel and ignition on my '94 turbo V6 camaro. At this point I'm trying to figure out how to add injector bungs to the stock 430 intake manifold. When you add injectors to your 455 are you going to use the stock maniold or an aftermarket aluminum one? It seems there's not much room for injector bungs on the roofs of the runners on the stock one...
The q-jet thorttle body works beautiful. But for the 455 i'm working on using a BBK twin 58mm throttle body fromTPI system. I will but pics on webshots when i'm further along with it. As for the injector bungs in the intake, I have some steel sleeves that are the exact correct inside diameter for the injectors, they will be JB welded into place in the intake. Thats how I installed the bungs in the intake i'm using on the Chevy truck, it has proven 100% successful. I am using a T/A stage-1 high rise single plane. Now all I have to do is find the time to put it all together! Supernova455
That's the same thing I'm trying to use! -a twin throttle body from a ford truck. Although I'm sticking with a stock throttle body until I know it'll work before I buy a bigger aftermarket one. I'd love to see some pics of what you have so far. What is the outter diameter of the steel sleeves you're using as bungs? I baught some 3/4" diameter steel bar stock to make my own. On the stock intake two 3/4" bungs right next to eachother on the siamiezed ports seems a bit crouded...but I guess I can always just start cutting and try it.
