Figured i would open a thread so people can talk about it. If its possible i think an extra head bolt for boosted apps runner flow valve sizes air gaps best cams for alum heads or single plane intakes( Maybe Gary could design a few) Chamber sizes who is planning to do a build with any of these parts
Here's my answer from the pole post. Any GOOD engine builder should be able to fab up an intake. If you do make the intake first drop the exhaust cross over. Everybody plugs them anyway and who's going to use a 7000rpm intake in the snow? I would also like to see the air gap design used. Center the carb pad, don't worry about it not aligning with the GS hood. Also, some one mentioned they could modify a TA stage1 intake to match flow with aluminum heads. You will NEVER modify a stock iron or TA stage1 intake to flow what a single plane will. Make the heads with Stage 2 style exhaust ports, spread the valve centers 1/8" for larger valves ( we can notch the bores like BB Chevy) use stud mount rockers. Leave plenty of material above the intake port to raise it if required. Raise the cover rails also. If you just make an aluminum version of the iron heads there will be very few sales. If I have to radically modify a aluminum head I'll just use iron heads and save the cost. And as Andy says add some head bolts if the block will allow. I think once there is a head that can make the power, the intakes and cams will follow.
"I think once there is a head that can make power, the intakes and cams will follow." Got that right!
i was thinking stage 2 exhaust ports also. would require new headers but im sure something can be made . also boosted apps can work fine with a ported ta dual plane since they dont need to go past 5500 in street use. it would be nice if they used chevy style rockers too . but we know TA isnt going that way. even at .050 that they move valves out that would give enough room for .100 bigger valves . Raised rails is a good idea.
Hey Steve,bigger valves is a good idea for aluminum heads,but no need to spread them out 1/8"!! LOL To be able to fit common 2.02" in. and 1.60" ex. performance valves they only need to be moved out .075" total. The ex. centerline only needs to be moved .025" and the intake .050" to be able to fit the above mentioned valves in a factory layout. This is because once the centerline is moved say .025" the diameter of the big end of the valve will need to be twice as much as the centerline moved to fill the gap. When the seat is machined from 1.550" to 1.600" with the centerline moved .025",most of the material will come off of one side. Moving the valves closer to the centerline of the bore would be even better to fit those size valves in a 3.800" bore and then centralize them for optimal unshrouding,leaving .090" per side with a standard bore. Of coarse the spark plug would have to be moved slightly to do this,but when you're starting out from scratch it shouldn't be to bad. So no need to notch the block.:TU: Derek ---------- Post added at 08:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:04 PM ---------- With a stage 2 type ex. port,headers would be somewhat simple by just changing the sbc flange to a sbb flange,or put a sbc flange on the new aluminum heads,done headers that fit!!! Just buy the sbc header for the sister car and bolt them on. Derek ---------- Post added at 08:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:20 PM ---------- There are a lot of other engines with only 4 bolts per cylinder that can hadle 40+ PSI of boost,but those engines have better head gaskets available for them. If we got heads,I think that would be one of the new products that would eventually be available. Derek
from my perspective; and my name is on the list for 2 sets of each. Any GOOD engine builder should be able to fab up an intake. ok, how much? same cost as a regular intake. no way use stud mount rockers. old technology. better check what the real racers use. shaft rockers stage 2 type ex. port,headers would be somewhat simple by just changing the sbc flange to a sbb flange. and would require new headers but im sure something can be made. 2" headers would ideal. I've did modify a set. $250 not counting header cost. got cash!? add some head bolts if the block will allow. yeah, right. how many have sat down and just looked a bare block from the inside out for hours. I have. now look at it from a business point of view. I make 300 intakes and make 300 customers happy and pay off this project or make 100 sets of heads and sell 10 sets and go broke. it's easier to sell the $350 item than the $3000 item first. if I'm wrong, then how come nobody else has had the balls and money to do it? where are all those 350 gurus now.
If the heads were set up for sbc stud mounted rockers something like this could be used if setup right; http://www.ebay.com/itm/Small-Block...ies&hash=item20da2a6e60&vxp=mtr#ht_3766wt_858 Derek
My point is you CAN weld up an intake, you can not build your own heads. Single plane intakes are for 3000-7000+ RPM. Iron heads are dead at about 5700 even with lots of porting. So the intake is not much help other than eye candy and a few less pounds.
Can the bowl area be changed to up the compression ratio so pistons won't be needed to achieve 9 or more comp?
100% agreed Johnny, cost wise, it would be easier for TA to make the intakes and sell them. If this can provide TA with enough profit to start to fund the head production then I am on board. I do think the biggest hole in the market for SBB parts is the heads though. You can get/fab a sheet metal intake for the right $$.
Here is a S/P intake with a heat crossover,note how it is a lesser expensive intake; Click to Enlarge Image View All Images Video 360 View [h=3]Loading media[/h] $154.97 Here is a higher end non air gap intake without a heat crossover; Click to Enlarge Image View All Images Video 360 View $289.97 <FORM id=addtoForm method=post action="" sizcache="10" sizset="75"> </FORM> Intake Manifold, Victor Jr. 454-R, Single Plane, Aluminum, Square Bore, Standard Deck, Chevy, Big Block, Each Edelbrock Victor Jr. Intake Manifolds Part Type: Intake Manifolds, Carbureted Now here is a D/P Air Gap intake without a heat crossover; Click to Enlarge Image View All Images Video 360 View $279.97 And now a S/P intake with a air gap and again without a heat crossover; Click to Enlarge Image View All Images Video 360 View $269.97 Now here is the $64,000 question,do people want the first lesser expensive lower performance version intake for $350,or would people want the higher end performance version "air gap" or non "air gap" style intake without a heat crossover for $350?(or whatever price TA markets it for) I realize most Buick people aren't used to after market performance parts and if an air gap style intake would be more perferred for a potenial intake purchaser,then a heat crossover on the valley cover part of the intake won't do much in the cold but will create excessive heat on a hot summer track day,and will cancel out the "air gap" effect.(just sayin) If there is a S/P intake made we will probably only have one shot at it,so what would people be more interested in,a higher performance style intake,or just a moderate performance style intake? I would think that if people would pick the first style intake it would be the death sentence for the 350 sbb because after a build is done and shows that lack of HP potenial the first style will give the sbb,naysayers will chime in with the old "just put a 455 in it if you want to make power" remarks. IMO And to those of you that aren't convinced I sugest that you do a little research on what the other brand of engine makes have for after market performance intakes and how they are designed. And while you're at it look at some after market aluminum heads and which ones have ex. heat crossover passages and which ones don't.(HINT:the higher performance after market aluminum heads DON'T have the ex. heat crossover passages) Again,just sayin,and if heads are made we'll probably only have one shot at getting those right too. So I hope I haven't offended anyone,I just wanted to share some of my knowledge from building "brand X" high performance engines with after maket parts for other people,and myself. I hope this helps,thats all I want to do is help get the best potenial parts made so people will stand up and notice Buick and the potenial of the sbb 350. And maybe get people that swpped a sbc in there Buick to swap back to a sbb? (which I will eventually be doing with the 64 Skylark below that I bought with a sbc engine in it) Derek PS, the above intakes are for reference only and not chosen for what brand they are installed on,they were faster to reference.
As far as the heads, spreading the valves out might make them incompatible with the shaft rocker assemblies. I don't have a head in front of me, so I couldn't speculate on the offset, if moving them out would lessen or increase it. But if these are going to be an improvement on the iron ones, and not just an aluminum copy, then pushrod clearance between the intakes and all that would need to be addressed anyway. I'm sure the people planning these are way ahead of me already on these thoughts. which begs the question, What possible stats do you, the engineers, have in mind?
Moving valves won't. change where pushrods and shaft mount rockers sit .rockers should have enough contact a area for them to work properly
some one tell me how much for a sheetmetal intake ?? got cash?? will it work properly?? what do we do with the guys that run nhra stock/superstock? tell them too bad?? 99% of sales the part has to fit under the hood. stud rockers, why? why old technology? the pro's use shaft rockers. the heads also have to be compatible for nhra replacements. do we leave these guys out again?? last......"I want, I want".........t/a is the only place out there. how about we start thinking about them staying in business. :Smarty:
Actually stud mounted rockers are a newer technology than shaft rockers. Shaft rockers are better for valve control than a stud mounted rockers,this is true and thats why the pros use them. But remember that the pros run very high lifts and durations combined with very high spring rates that most street/strip guys will NEVER run. For a street/strip app. quality stud mounted rockers have proven themselves to be durable and reliable over the years and are WAY less expensive than an after market shaft mounted setup. Not to mention the crappy non-adjustable production shaft mounted factory sbb 350 rockers with those stupid nylon buttons that will fail on a high lift cam situation.So they would have to be upgraded to a very expensive aftermarket setup to run a decent performance cam with higher lifts to match the flow of the new heads. I bet if the heads were made to run both types,either stud or shaft rockers that most guys(even if they won't admit it)would run the lesser expensive stud mounted rockers. And thats because most guys aren't the pros,sorry I'm not trying to be mean,but the cash that can be saved from buying a shaft mounted system can go to a roller cam or something else to improve performance. Most guys don't have the budget that the pros have,so any area to save some cash will help sell more heads. Say someone spends the up to $3,000 on a set of heads,then to have to spend another $600 or so for aftermarket shaft rockers to be able to run a decent cam to take advantage of the added head flow,that may be the deciding factor NOT to buy the heads,and thats why people are asking for that option. All this is just my opinion and I'm sure some will disagree,but is the reason that Edelbrock sells any bbb heads at all because of the less expensive stud mounted rocker option. So that gives me the idea that TA should make the heads so they are able to use both styles so guys have a choice,and Edelbrock can't come out with their version head with stud mounted rockers that steal sales from TA.(best of both worlds) Derek
Very good point made here, that would be a very good idea to be able to use either system, and as Derek said this will keep Edelbrock out of the picture on TA's sales on this. Since they did not want to take on this project. I know Sean tried to coax them on this and Edel would not listen. If TA has to pick one system or the other go with the stud mount I can change systems. I have the shaft roller rockers.
Quick question about the NHRA stock/super stock guys. How many guys are racing Buick 350's in super stock? Are they allowed to use aluminum replacement heads in this class? Are single plane intakes allowed?
Granted I'm referring to BBB stuff, but regarding "air gap" manifolds, please note that the question has come up more than a few times comparing track results between the TA SPX (air gap) intake manifold and the TA SP1, which is not an "air gap" design. The race folks report no significant difference between the two at the track. For the small block Buick can an exhaust crossover be designed into a new manifold that looks like SP1? I don't know, but it is a really interesting idea! My point: Don't get too hung up on the "air gap" design. With the right development work, we might get the best of both worlds. Devon
