On the fence - keep the '59 LeSabre original or wait for $$ and go hog wild?

I still have not done anything with my '69 LeSabre. I just can't bring myself to make a decision on what direction to take with it. I have no real money saved for this project since I went all out on my GN resto. Here is my problem:

I have lots of people telling me that I need to dump the 2 speed dynaflow and torque tube for a modern trans, open driveline, and 4 link rear end setup. The problem with this is that I will not have the kind of cash to do that for years to come. I probably could have my buddy who is a metal fab guy do a custom 4 link for a deal...but is the stock suspension really all that bad? No way in hell do I want to make this car handle amazing or auto-x it. I could probably have him build me a nice crossmember to mount the truck arms to and call it good if I wanted to go open driveline and it would be a lot less than buying the one that I think is sold for around $1k. But then I now need to find a trans. No biggie, but it costs more money. If I'm going to go that route I'd want to go with an OD trans and would probably want at least a 4L80E to handle the weight of the car and torque of the Nailhead. Maybe that is overkill. Maybe I could cheap out and use a 700R4. Then I need to get a 3rd member for open driveline and I'd have a hell of a hard time finding one of those from an early 60's Rivi. Then it is onto the adapter. I'd need to spend about $850 for a kit that has the proper flywheel that is balanced for my 364. Not to mention I think I need an adapter for my crank. At this point I still need to get the motor back together. May as well just say screw it all and dump an LS in it.

Or...I can just leave it stock. Get the block tanked, hone it, put in new rings / bearings, clean up the heads, freshen up the trans, make sure all driveline bearings / seals are good and call it done. I could probably get this thing back under its own power for under $1k. Do like Mike Modena recommends - keep the stock big drums and swap in a '68 LeSabre power brake master / booster, put in an alternator, aftermarket air, eventually bag it and be happy.

Thoughts??

 

Keep the 364 , Dynaflow., and torque tube.
Build it as a cool cruiser.
I love driving mine with a Dynaflow... Nothing like it. Nailhead torque with a no shift transmission.
sm0000thh ride

 

I think you answered the question when you asked it. If you don't have the money now you will have to keep it stock for a while. Right?

As for going through the motor, why? Is it smoking? Low oil pressure? Etc. The reason I ask is because taking off the heads can be a point of no return. Engines that run well before tear down are frequently not worth resembling without a lot more than a hone and rings. With the heads off and the pistons and rods pulled you may find a cylinder that is out of round and has so much taper it can not be honed and still be within acceptable specs. So now your simple hone and go is an over bore job. The crank bearing surfaces my be so far gone they need to be ground undersize. Now you have to add in the cost of the machine work and a new set of bearings. If the lower end is bad what about the heads? You could probably bolt them back on but most likely they will need work as well.

My first point is that if your engine is running satisfactorily with all the parts serendipitously worn together and, absent a real problem, it may be better to leave it together and running.

My second point is that no matter what you think the problem is, when you open up an engine you need to be ready, mentally and financially, to fix any problem you expose.

If I was going to upgrade the rear suspension I would take a serious look at the 80s and 90s Corvette IRS. Friend of mine has done two late 40s Buick conversions and they both turned out great. Not a bolt in but also relatively simple.

 

I think you more or less answered your own question. There is nothing wrong with the 364 with Dynaflow drive and a torque tube. I had a 60 Invicta for years with the 401 Dynaflow and torque tube and it was very respectable. I used to race it when in college for gas money and I'd surprise many an idiot with a badly hopped up Camaro or Nova. Any way you cut it, it's a 4000 lb beast, it'll never get raving gas mileage, it'll never perform like the Corvette, and you'll have done an awful lot of work to make a purely personal car which by the end of it all you'll either love or hate. (Depends how much money, time or cost to your marriage it'll be)

But then again I'm a purist. I love driving the older drivelines, there's nothing like a well working Dynaflow, it's an experience. If I want a reliable car that I don't need to tinker with and goes fast, I'll buy some modern cookie-cutter clunker.

My vote is to fix it up and drive it.

 

The motor hadn't run in years and was full of rust in the water jackets. I remembered it having lots of blow by when it did run. So I already pulled it apart. Cam bearings look fine. Crank looks good. Main and rod bearings were in spec. End play was in spec. Piston clearances are fine. Taper is .005 to .006. According to the book that is fine. The ring gaps were way out of spec. That would explain the blow by. The heads should be passable. They are 61-63 401-425 casting numbers and were refreshed / installed probably 10k miles before the car was parked. The trans was rebuilt maybe 5k mikes before it was parked.

I'll take the block to someone to double check sometime soon. These nailheads can get real expensive in a hurry and you can't just hand them to anyone to build.

 

idk why you want a 4l80e a built up 700 or 200 would be better suited behind the 364. is the rear leaf sprung or coil on the 59? if leaf it would be a easy deal to put a rear from another car truck behind it. i have seen gear vendors in torque tube cars too.

 

It is coil spring suspension. The rear suspension is truck arms that connect to the torque tube and a panhard bar at the top.

I'd choose a modern trans first before a 200-4r or a 700-r4. The only 200-r4 i like is the brf code one out of the t type /gn. I figure that if I spend big bucks to make a trans swap happen, why put in a 25+ year old trans that needs to be rebuilt? Ive heard too many horror stories about trans rebuilds that didn't go right on these. I figure a stock, low mile 4L80E will hold up fine and be hassle free. Just my personal thoughts though. I've had plenty of "this will work out good enough and cost less" moments that have bit me in the butt. Thats why I came to the conclusion that this build will be all out or super simple. If I keep it all as is and blow the dynaflow I'm really not out anything. If I spent lots of money of an older trans setup that only lasted a year and now I need it rebuilt again for whatever reason I'd be pissed. That's my logic anyway.

Plus this car is unique in how it is setup and is a piece of engineering history. I see the dynaflow as kind of an attempt at a cvt in a sense. I think that's cool. Plus this car was my grandfather's and I have good memories in it. It would be cool to keep it driving the same way. I've just had so many people tell me to dump the dynaflow and rear suspension or I'll regret it that I got scared to even bother rebuilding it original.

 

well a 4l80e would hold the power possibly but its a large trans takes alot of power to drive and you need 600 to 1k computer to control it and still would have to rebuild it with harder parts. with its large size your going to have to hack the floor up pretty bad and you going to kill alot of power to spin it. you could do a 4l60e but the only advantage of it over the 700r4 is the computer control. the only major difference int he 4 series trans over the older counter parts are the tcm controlling them over the tv cable. the internals are basically the same (well the 4l80 isnt since there was on other th400 overdrive variant however its basically a th400 with overdrive).

gear vendors stuck in it would give you overdrive and still keep the dynaflow if thats what your wanting is od. read up on some of the tq tube gv set ups. none are buick and its a bit of fab but prob as cheap as building a 4l80e and wiring it up.

 

Thanks for the info on those. I think this car can cruise on the highway fine as is with the dynaflow and the gears it has. I think I've just been talking to people who think I need to make this car super fast. I have zero intentions of doing that. I have a GN that is now putting down enough power to go 10's and a DD that can run 12's. I don't really care to row this boat that fast. :Brow:

I will get the motor tanked and have a second person mic everything before I make any more decisions. I guess my point is that my thoughts are either keep it 100% stock drivetrain or just buy an entire used LS drivetrain from a truck, Trailblazer SS, G8 GT, etc and dump it in. That way I get a package deal with harness, PCM, TCM, accesories, etc and all I need to deal with is the rear end. Spending all the money to mate a more modern trans to this car would cost almost as much.

 

:gp: That would be my decision, and probably the most cost-effective. The 59 Buick wasn't a bad car; it rusted like a shipwreck, but it performed reasonably well. And like you've said, the GN more than handily will take care of the need for speed.

I've always wanted a nice 59 Buick, but as of yet haven't found one. They aren't the most common cars either and are at the top of their collectibility right now, you'll never get more money for one than now, but only if it's completely stock.

 

yeah thats the best route still looking at 2-3 grand. fix what you got if your not wanting it fast is my advice too.

 

I would find a 401/425 and put money into rebuilding that,,, but,,, then I do all my own work and basicly are only out the parts and machine work....
Take a good look at my list of cheap tricks sticky in this section and you will discover a lot of things you can do to upgrade the car.... and it will respond well to those things.... for not much money ....

 

Mine has not one spot of rust on it, so I am in good shape there.

2k is probably accurate. Other than machine work, I can do the rest myself. If this motor needs machine work, I'll probably be looking to go another route.

the thought of swapping a 65-66 401 / 425 with a st400 if I could find a solid setup has crossed my mind. Then again if it all needs rebuilding I'd just take my money and find a low mile modern drivetrain to swap in. I also do my own stunts too barring machine work, so I can keep the costs down. I need to start reading your posts. Tanks Doc!

I don't plan on pushing this thing hard, so as long as things check out I'll just do fresh bearings, cam, timing chain / gears, file fit new rings, new galley and freeze plugs, hone it, new pushrods and valve springs, clean up heads, maybe re-lap the valves if they are ok. Just a basic freshening up. Knowing my luck something will require machine work. the motor ran nice the last time it ran. The only thing I noticed was a little more blow by out of the valve cover than normal. The ring gap being out of spec explains that.

 

well the ls swap would prob be at least 2-3 grand too. if you do alot of the nailhead work yourself prob be cheaper than that.

could put in a bbb and overdrive behind it pretty cheap if it would bolt in and all.

 

I do have a '68 Buick 400 laying around in similar shape to the 364. I'm holding onto that one for some random hotrod project though.

 

nope,,, stick with the nailhead engines... easier swap.... now ,, there will be a problem with the drive train if you try to put in a th400,,,, stick with the 364 and build the 300 hp version.... if,, the bell housing pattern is the same for the 364/401/425 and it may be.... then the block will bolt in.... but then there is the issue of hooking the torque converter to the flexplate,,,, the early engines had a different rear flange configuration.... I did hook a 59 year 401 up to a 1966 th 400 by having a machine shop open the center hole up enough to go over the 59 crank flange.... using a 66 th400 flex plate....
do the research,,, where there is a will there is a way.... but starter location may throw you a curve.... starters for the dyna and a th 400 are different.... I had to make up one from parts as I remember....
like I said do lots of home work... I think you would better off building a 300 hp 364 and keeping the dyna trans....

 

Yeah the bell housing is the same and that's it. That being said, I can make a '64-'66 ST400 (this is just the model name for the Nailhead version of the TH400) bolt up to my crank with one of the adapters in the link below and some work on the starter.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Buick-nailh...01-425-1957-1963-/130682424361#ht_1768wt_1124

From there I would just need a 3rd member out of a mid 60's Rivi, a crossmember for the truck arms, and find a driveshaft that works.

It may not be a bad way to go "if" I can find all those parts. This stuff was all commonplace in the junkyards 15-20 years ago and I wish I had the good sense to grab all that and hold onto it. If I only knew

 

Making my 364 a 300hp version will not be a problem. I have a stock 4BBL intake for it. It already has the newer heads and higher ratio rockers. A few more tricks and decent exhaust and it will run good I think.

 

Well.. combine that with my Dual plane mod and the list of cheap tricks and you will have over 300 hp....:Smarty::Brow:

 

plenty for something that you just want to drive. people worry about numbers to much.