Oil Pressure....help

Larry ...your right I mis-stated my clearances on a prior posting. I had said Gasket surface as opposed to mating surface. the gasket is a black paper type gasket, when I mic'ed it it read .005 on the micrometer. Guess I better get them checked.
I'm not as experience as you and JW are at this, or alot of other people for that matter. I just started working on engines a little over 7 months ago. But I was a machine repairan at Buick for 33 1/3 years before retiring this spring, so I no stranger to tearing stuff apart, and fixing,and re-assembly. There are so many different checks to make when assembling an engine. When I looked thru my notes, I had no notation of crank end play. I gotta believe if it isn't noted, then I didn't check it. Cause I noted it in my last engine rebuild. I know I'll make more mistakes as time goes by, but I won't make that one again.
The torque convertor I used is a used stock 400 th. Does the convertor balloon because of internal pressures, caused by the pump side of the convertor?

 

Yes ,I had mis-stated in an eailier posting.

 

Square it up? I have so much to learn.I had the mains re lined bored. It has stock bolts. I figured if I bolted it down to (the caps) to proper torque specs it should be square. No? How is done?
I will be building yet another motor this coming winter to 10 10ths of the rules. I have a verbal agreement to sell this car at the end of the racing season. Next year I will be racing the man pedal car. It is so much more fun to race. Harder to launch, but way more fun.

 

Larry,

Two possible causes..

With studs, not opening up the holes in the #3 main cap, to correctly align the upper and lower half of the thrust bearings. What happens typically, is that you end up with the crank riding on half of the bearing, typically the lower half. It will live like this about as long as Jim's engine did.

With bolts, an incorrectly squared thrust cap.

With the cap not on square, or with the halves not properly aligned it will ride on just one side or half of the thrust bearing, and will wear that material off, trap the material between the bearing and the crank, and just grind the whole works up. You can get away with a mild case of misalignment, but if it was bad enough eliminate just about all the end play, it won't live long like that.

JW

 

Squaring up a Thrust cap on the 455 Buick..

1. After the crank has been set in the upper main bearings, and the rear cap with the seal set in place and tightened to 30 ft lbs, install the bearing in the #3 main cap, and seat it in the engine.

2. Tighten the bolts finger tight.

3. Set your dial indicator up on the end of the crank snout.. a magnetic base stuck to the front of the engine works well for this. Align the indicator plunger up with in line with the crank snout.

4. Tighten the Thrust cap bolts up so they are just "snug". You have to be able to move the cap, so it's can't be tight, we all know what "snug" is.. maybe a half-snug.. you know what I am getting at here.

5. With a big screwdriver, pry lightly between the main bearing bulkheads, and the crank, so as to try and move the crank forward, and then backward. Note the readings on the indicator.

** I can't stress enough here that you looking for "free play".. not what you can get the indicator to read by prying on it, which will actually flex the cap. So use a light touch here.

6. At this point, set the indicator to zero, with the crank as far forward as it will go..

7. Now, line up the counterweights on the crank, so that they are in line with the number 2 main bearing bulkhead in the block.

8. With a large screwdriver, tap it in with medium pressure, between the back of the bulkhead and the crank.. this works the crank backward in the block, and will square the cap to the crank.
Watch your indicator as you do this..

9. Now, move the screwdriver over to the other side, between the front of that bulkhead and the other counterweight. Now your pushing the crank, and the cap forward, and it will move until you hit the bottom half of the thrust bearing.

10. With your screwdriver still in place, holding the crank forward in the block, tap the bottom of the thrust cap lightly on both sides, to be sure it is square against the crank. Use a blunt edge Steel punch to do this. Tap it LIGHTLY.

Now remove your prying screwdriver, and re-measure your end play. You should end up with .005 to .007, almost all 455's with the stock crank end up right around .006. And it's true free play.. you can hear and feel it.. it goes "thunk, thunk" as you lightly pry it back and forth, and it's FREE.

Then move the crank so your indicator reads zero again, that should be with the crank all the way forward. Tighten the bolts on that cap to 30 ft lbs. Watch to make sure you indicator stays on zero.

Then install the #1, 2 and 4 Main caps. Tighten the mains up , from the center cap outward, to 30, 60 and then you final torque, which will be between 90 and 110 ft lbs. Makes sure you have plenty of the same lube that was used on the block when it was line honed/bored.

Re-check your crank end play. It has to be the same as with the block untorqued, +/- .001

There are other ways to do his, I know Mike at TA pushes the crank forward by prying between the back of the crank and his engine stand, but your accomplishing the same thing, and I have found this to be the easiest, most effective way.

JW

 

I matched all oil holes in the main bearings to the upper holes in the block. As I recall there are no oil holes in the cap. The crank was ground 10/10 under size. The work done was completed by Bill Riecherts ( current NHRA T/A dragster national champion) machine shop here locally. I have never had a problem with his work, nor has the man overseeing my build. He has raced Buicks for twenty years. When I checked main bearing clearance they were between .0015 and .002. After checking each bearing individually. I reassemble the cap and rotated the crank several times.Then removed the caps to check for scoring. All passed that check anyways. What can be done with a crank that has too much end play? I thought if the thrust bearing was shot I would see the evidence when I cut the filter apart, or when i lowered the oil pan, and ran a large magnet thru it. I obviously misstep some where at this point in the build. Hopefully the disassembly will be enlightening.

 

If it's .075, then your wearing a groove into the backside of the thrust surface on the crank. It will have to be welded, and then the crank turned to the next undersize.

Don't feel bad Jim, if it ends up that that cap was not trued up, it makes you no different than most home builders, you just were one of the unlucky ones who didn't get away with it.

Most folks blame the converter, because they replace it, and get lucky on the next engine assembly, and get the cap on square enough to have some end play, and it lives.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut occasionally..

Let's see how it looks when you get it apart.

 

One note..

In re-reading this, I noticed I am not using the correct terminology here... I should be saying "aligned" instead of "Squared".

I don't want to give the impression that the cap is on "crooked", because it shouldn't be, the register areas of the cap (where cap fits into the block) actually "square" the cap up on the block..

Although I have seen thrust surfaces worn on just one side or the other, so some mis-alinment is possible, but you really can't do anything about that. The block/cap was machined at the factory crooked, but going thru the alignment process will minimize this as much as possible.

What we are doing here is aligning the upper and lower half of the thrust bearing.

I hope that makes it more clear..

JW

 

Going back to shimming up the oil pump cover, I experienced some gasket crush when I assembled my last oil pump. I would suggest assembling the oil pump and making sure the gears turn freely before putting in vaseline. You may need another .0005 than your math tells you.

 

JJ if the crank is bad I have a spare that is at Riechert engine. If you need it use it and we will figure something out later (just want to see her run at Stanton)

I'll PM you when I pick up my motor from Riechert. Should be next week ray:

 

JW is it ok to weld the stock cast crank? If so what would it cost to fix the thrust surface?

I only ask because Bill at Riechert said he wouldn't weld a cast crank

Thanks in advance
Jeremy

 

Mr. JW,

Interesting read on setting up the thrust bearing.

I'll give it a try when the next one goes together.


I'm wondering too, if you had the same measurement - with a feeler gauge - all around wouldn't that indicate things are square/aligned?

 

Yup, welding is no big deal, as long as you have the right outfit do it.

On our cast cranks , they magnuflux them, pre-heat and then gas-shield weld them.. but the real key is they are then heat treated and stress relieved. This is what prevents the breakage issue that welded cast cranks often suffer from.

Retail on that service, for the mag, thrust repair, heat treating, and then the custom size re-grind of the mains, detailing the oil holes, and polishing is $166.

I am lucky to have one of the best crank shops in the country here in Minneapolis.. in fact, they are about 3 miles from my house, about 20 from the shop here.. The guy who does my cranks has been doing them continuously since 1973, the shop has been in business for 50 years. Virtually all the high performance shops in the upper Midwest use these guys. And they ship cranks worldwide.

Here is their website.

http://www.crankshaftsupply.com/home.htm

I have always considered my relationship with them, one of the biggest assets of the engine program here at TSP.

JW

 

Technically, yes, if you can access the upper and lower area between the crank and thrust bearing all the way around, a consistant feeler gauge measurement would indicate that the alignment is correct. Although you would want to have the crank bottomed against one side of the bearing to insure you don't move it during your measurements.

But a dial indicator is a key tool to have in engine building, it's impossible to degree the cam in without one. I actually use two different ones in engine building, to set the crank, find actual TDC, and degree the camshaft, check actual valve lift ect..

JW

 

Thanks.

I have a few dial indicators - amateur machinist and all that - so I wondered how well it could be done with feeler gauges since I'd done a few engines with feeler gauges in the past.
Not completely sure how a few of them worked out since I put together the short block and the owner took it from there.
(I'm not a shop, just a home-based hot rodder.)

I did see the cars running around for a long time and there were no complaints heard from the owners.
A couple of mine I tore apart had the thrust surfaces worn equally so perhaps I was lucky there.


As a small aside, sometimes we shoot ourselves in the foot even after thinking it over for a while.

I have/had ARP head studs in the 32's engine.
Pulling the heads to install nylon valve seals and the machining required was no problem on the right bank.
The head slid up and off.

Left bank, no go because I didn't take into account the front body mount of the 32 roadster that intruded into the engine bay a bit.

So now the engine has ARP studs on the right and ARP bolts on the left.

Later on, I'll pull the right side studs and install bolts.
The studs won't be wasted, they'll be installed in the 31 roadsters engine.

I know that serious racers don't re-use studs, but it shouldn't hurt since the 31's engine will end up at 9.5/1 or 10/1 CR and driven mostly on the street.

 

Got it ready to come out this am. Now I gotta wait for Dave to get home so I can borrow the hoist again.
Thanks for the offer Jeremy. I supect wil the abundance of Buick racers right here in the area, between us we'll come with some thing. That's one thing I really like about this group, someone is always ready to help you out :beers2: Now I suppose in the mean time I'll bag up the bolts, organize and clean up the garage. I have S#%T scattered all over the place.

 

Wound up pulling the motor out today with the help of my friend and fellow board member Nick. All main bearings are toast, the crank is toast. I'm not sure if it can be saved. I have not determind the cause. An early guess would be something got into the oil passages. No big shavings off the bearings. It looks like the the bearings were in a slurry of sand and oil, or cast iron. It doesn'tlook like an assembly error. The are freaking pounded evenly and completely. every f'n one. Not just the thrust bearing. I haven't pulled the cam yet but I imagine the bearings are shot too.There was even one half of a spring lock broken, on #8 intake. The drivers side rocker arm between 3 and 5 was blue. I couldn't take working on it anymore, I might as well opened a f'n window and thrown my money out. I doubt if I will make another race this year. As of now I could careless to work on it again in the forseeable future.

 

Sorry man. That is terrible to read. Time for beer.

I remember that feeling when I pulled out my old TA 212 cam to see most of the bearings were ruined. However, a happy ending only costed $250 and a week.