Well, it seems I got very lucky. I don't know if you all recall, but my 462 had some issues a week or so ago. namely, a loud, persistent knocking noise. I have yanked the engine, and pulled the rod and main caps. Here is what I have seen: Two scratched rod journals. One, single scratch on each. One scratched main journal. Not very deep, either. Again, a single scratch. All three of these single scratches are in the center of the bearing path, and all three have a teensy bit of foreign material in the bearing. I'll be taking a leather strop to these tomorrow to knock down the high spots. Almost all the bearings show more wear than they should (I built the engine 50,000 miles ago). One is just beginning to be wiped out- I could flake the bearing material away to reveal the backing jacket. This is the one I feel was casuing the noise. The other two definitely potential causes of this noise I heard, as well. I can still clearly read the stampings on the back of each and every bearing, however, so it seems no bearing spun. But nothing more than three scratches on those rod and main journals. No discoloration at all, no signs of too much heat other than a few odd wear marks on some bearings. The crank was turned 5 years ago, 0.010" on the mains, 0.020" on the rod journals The oil pickup screen was...covered in some fibrous material. I mean coated. The thinking right now is that this is from an oil filter or filters. Here is the scenario as far as I can make it out: I had barely enough oil pressure and volume before I pushed the engine too far. When push came to shove, the oil pump was starved and couldn't draw enough oil from the pan because of the restricted screen and a weak pump to begin with, so the bearings took it on the chin. Somehow, I shut it off before it was too late. Probably. Right now, I am so glad I didn't take the advice of several people who said, "Well, let me hear it run". Uh-uh, no way, I told them. I don't know everything about engines, but I know a bad noise when I hear it! I'm going to replace all bearings, polish the crank journals, and plastigauge the whole mess. I did a quick check with some plastigauge with the old bearings, on one that was not so good- 0.020" on the nose. Tolerance is listed in my chassis manual as 0.002" to 0.023". New bearings should tighten that up nicely. I had a family member over who is an A&P mechanic and an ex-drag racer, and he was as surprised as me that everything looks so good, considering. (he was the one who discovered the coating on the pickup screen, I hadn't tried cleaning it yet) Looks like I may have dodged a big bullet. I'll know for sure tommorrow when I check the tolerances with new bearings, but I am now quite hopeful instead of funereal about the condition of the engine. So. When rebuilding a Buick 455, or any engine: don't settle for oil pressure that is 'good enough'. I very fortunately have a good used timing cover AND an brand new TA timing cover/high performance oil pump in my hot little hands, so I should be able to rectify the issue. BOTH my oil pressure gauges are going in: one under the dash, one under the hood. I won't get fooled again :TU: On the plus side, I will be installing my new cam while all this drama is unfolding! Maybe , for the first time, I can get the engine back in the car with the motor mounts bolted to the block, instead of lowering the block to the mounts...I'm hoping that sometime, in the middle of next week, I'll be motoring again, if the rain holds off :3gears: Just in time to put the car away!
This is the main reason that I have always waited for the engine and oil to warm up befor I rev the motor over 2000rpm. I have heard too many horror stories over the years of oil filters coming apart and putting material all through the motor. Its a good thing that you shut it off when you did! Good luck and make sure of all your clearances. Mike
Chris, I have to ask.... What brand oil filters do you use? Also, maybe you haven't heard about filtermag. The strongest magnet made that supposed to trap iron as small as 2 microns. I have one on my truck, and one for the 455 still sitting on the engine stand (used it during the dyno break-in). I think it is www.filtermag.com I also read from oil specialist that filters are a crap shoot, and the only way you can know you have a bad one is after it is too late. He also said price has NOTHING to do with it. :eek2:
Were you using any rope seals? I've seen rope seal material do the same thing. Battery acid removes it nicely, but don't leave it in there too long.
Chris, Nothing you describe in my opinion would be the cause of a knock or noise loud enough to shut down and do what you are doing. There is something else. I just have that feeling. Piston pin fit? All valve stems straight? Top of pistons unmarked? Valve springs and retainers intact? Rockers and buttons intact? I know you probably have checked most of these but I figure I'd throw them out anyway. Keep us posted!
That may be so, Bill, I have no doubt, but it is my opinion that I had very low oil pressure (pump was just inside tolerance when I built the engine, but no better cover was available) and very little oil volume. I am pretty confident in my assesment. I do not mean to sound defensive or angry because I am not, but I have had an A&P (aircraft airframe and powerplant) mechanic look at this at the same time I have, and he mirrors my thoughts on it. This is the same guy who used to be a head garage mechanic and slingshot drag racer as well, so he's been around the block a few times with IC engines. That main bearing that had problems was pretty bad, I literally flaked the bearing apart with my thumbnail, and the two rod bearings that had issues had awfully alarming wear. That's why we were so surprised I only had a total of three scratches, one under each problem bearing, and no blue marks on the journals. I have checked the valve stem heights against a straight edge. They are all within about 0.020" of the same height. I have had bad keepers, just last year, this was not a valve train noise in my opinion. Rocker arms are fine, rocker shafts are as good as can be expected. Pushrods are straight, valve stems are unbent. If I do have a bad valve, I have one instake and one exhaust waiting if I need them As far as piston pin fit goes, all I have been able to check is that the pin can freely slide back and forth in the piston- which they can. i feel if the wrist pin had slop, I would loose the oil wedge in there and that the pin couldn't glide easily. The A&P wasn't concerned about what the pins were doing and neither was I. Also, I do not have the tool needed to remove/install heated and pressed in wrist pins. But, this noise was low on the engine. Very low. Too low, in my opinion, to be a piston problem or wrist pin A lot of people have asked how I could tell how low the noise was. I just could. I'm not A-1 hotshot mechanic, but I could tell that the noise was very low. Take that at face value if you must. I feel the wear on these rod bearings alone lends weight to my assesment. Again, not mad at you. It's hard to say some things in a typed message so that folks understand if you're angry or not. I didn't get the heads off today (looking for bearings all day) but I do not expect to see piston damage. I have to get a suit jacket tailored tonight for a wedding in New York that I have next weekend, so I'm done for the day D-Con- yup, rope front seal. I had little choice at the time. Never leaked, though. My new timing cover has neoprene seal already installed. Dan- I had been using Mobil-1 filters. My feeling was that since they make the synthetic oil I use, I would use their filters. Seems that was a mistake. It's almost certain that the material on the screen was from the filter. I work with a guy who thinks he still has his oil filter cutter. The scary thing is- how long was this going on for? A little here, and a little there, over 5 years? I wonder if looking in the pump will tell me anything I guess I'm going back to Fram filters for my oil filters
No offense taken Chris. These were also just my gut feelings from my own experiences. If the bearings are the cause and you caught it when you did then you may have dodged a bullet. The damage could have been catastrophic. Good luck with the reassembly. Maybe your heads will show up just in time? :eek2:
AC bought a friend of mine a brand new 502 to replace the 427 one of their filters trashed when it came apart inside. But your out of luck unless you still have the filter to prove the failure. Mobil 1 filters are cellulose I think, so that might help you prove the point if that was the problem. Can you ID the fibers between the possibility of rope or filter fibers?
Still have the filter, but the fibers stuck on the pick up have been removed. I bet there's some in the pump, though! very frustrated today. All I could do is take my headers out, wire brush them, and put on a new high temp coating, since I can't get bearings until tomorrow or Tuesday. But if anyone needs recommendation for high temp paint for headers, i use the Eastwood Co. silver exhaust manifold paint. I have had these headers for six years now, no ceramic coating, all I do is paint them with this stuff every other year and the headers are still fine.
Chris, While its apart, why not do a balance? It can't hurt to have the loads equalized etc with a freshly balanced crank. Well worth the $2-300.
I'm not sure why it would need another balance? I had the engine and crank done to the nines to ensure a quality build, the crank and rotating mass were all balanced in 1999. Am I just not seeing why it needs another balance? On another note, has anyone had as much trouble getting flipping BEARINGS as I have had these last four days? I actually had a guy on the phone from a bearing specialty shop that didn't know what I was talking about... "Main and rod bearings? Is this for a transmission?" I hung up on that twit. Another guy told me he'd have to see the bearings, despite the fact that I have the Clevite numbers and the oversize I need written down and tried to give them to him. "No, I would really have to see the bearings" :shock: A third place told me they didn't sell bearings...despite the fact that I had gotten a part number from his store on Saturday for the bearings...after showing the manager that in 1970, the VIN didn't carry a letter code for the engine type...by having him look at the Chassis manual. Guy wanted to tell me that because his computer said so, the 8th digit MUST be a letter and it MUST be the engine code for 1970. Sorry, my friend, but you are wrong as wrong can be...he flat out wouldn't beleive how the VIN worked until I showed him the manual (I had it with me- good tip). Then he looked up the part! Of course they didn't have them and it would take until Wednesday if he ordered... I had to call TA and order bearings from flipping Arizona . TA asked what bearings I needed and if my address had changed.
eastwood header paint Sorry to hear about your engine issues. I agree on that Eastwood silver header paint. Great stuff and has not burnt off yet on two different sets of headers that were painted last year. Let me know if you need an extra set of hands. Later
Bearings www.egge.com seems to have what you need, any reason why you wouldn't just get them online??
"Obsolete engine parts?" I chuckled when I clicked on that link.. No, 455s are not in that catagory yet.. there are at least 2 engine parts warehouses in town here that have main and rod bearings on the shelf. When your dealing with a parts person, you give them the numbers and the undersize, and they don't know what your talking about, that's your que to turn around and walk back out the door. Try and deal with more professional parts houses, rather than the big chain stores. You typically will have better luck there. And I read your thoughts on the fiberous material caught in pickup.. I very much doubt it came from an oil filter. Remember, the filter is after the pump, and the system is sealed with only very small orrifices and bearing clearances after the filter. I do beleive what you saw was rag lint, which got in the motor the last time you built it. This is very common, I see it all the time. Never use rags/paper towels to wipe anything during final assembly. You need to work the cylinder walls to remove the honing grit with a cloth-like paper towel soaked in oil, but this should be done in the prep step, which will be followed by another complete engine wash, then on to final assembly. As far as your noise goes, it's distrubing to hear that you did not find a bearing down to copper.. especially if the noise was loud. Unless you had almost no oil pressure, which generally first manifests itself by noisy lifters. I wouild be looking very hard at everything in that motor, especially the rods and pistons/pins. I would magnuflux the rods, pistons, and the crank. Take your time now, or you may get the "opportunity" to repeat this process. JW
Oh, there was a main bearing down to copper, the upper #1. I was able to really inspect the crank and bearings yesterday. Also, the #3 main was so worn that I flaked the bearing down to the copper jacket by rubbing my thumb over it. I thought I had mentioned that, but I also may have editted it out, I cut and pasted a section out and back in. One of the rod bearings, the #6 if I recall, did have a section worn to copper as well. The releiving news is that none of the three scratches actually go all the way around the journals. I hear ya about the inspection Jim. I will do my possible. I am disadvantaged in several ways, what with no shop space clean enough to do this, no time to do this, and almost no money to do this. Also, I am borrowing cars while this goes on- the 462 was powering my daily driver! The thought has crossed my mind to buy a short block, since I have a new timing cover/oil pump in hand, new heads on the way, a new carb to put on it, and several other new parts. It's tempting to cut my losses and save the 2500 dollars over the winter for the shortblock. But also, deep down, I liked building the engine and I liked driving the engine I built too much to do that, really. Could easily be a rag, as to filter vs rag lint speculation, but I do have my suspicions it's the filter. I mean, this would be about an entire rag's worth of lint without exaggeration. It was thickly coated. Like I said, I'm not A-1 hotshot mechanic, but I was very careful of any lint, dirt, etc, during the build up, and I was schooled in a few things to pay attention to when building engines for aircraft when I was at University- but I certainly haven't learned all there is to know about IC engines and you have more experience than I do by a country mile, Jim! Will post updates when something worth reporting happens...I am plastigauging the rods and mains tomorrow, I think. No matter what the culprit, oil control seems to be the ultimate issue. What I am still surprised by is that the journals on the crank had no signs of heat damage. If this thing does make the sound after I button it back up, I will just store the car for the winter and weigh my options over the cold weather. That's the one and only nice thing about only driving the car from May to November. GD- thanks for the offer! I hope I don't need too much more help! Pat- I don't order anything online for a couple reasons 1) I don't trust it. I know lots of folks who have gotten ripped off. I don't even have an ATM card. I drive a 35 year old car to get my sorry butt to work- that should tell you my opinion of change! 2) I would really like to give local businesses the business. I would have been very happy to drive down the street to the parts store and get my bearings to support the loacl parts place and keep them in business. Apparently, to do that, I must move to Arizona, or get a place near Jim W., since the only pros who seem to be able to give me help or sell me what I need to buy are many miles away :TU: Keep your toes crossed for me, I hope to be turning the key maybe the weekend after this, I have to go to Long Island for a wedding this weekend. Love my cousin to death, but jeez, brother, it's not exactly near by!
Chris, I've been following your engine dilema for a couple of days, I just wish you luck and know you will figure out the demons that are causing your problems. I see your headed towards my home base [long island] this weekend, where abouts??? Too bad I'll be in Maryland at Cecil County Dragway in Maryland or maybe we could have hooked up for an hour or two. Anyway good luck with your engine :TU: PS We should be home by noon Sun, if you expect to be here by then let me know, We're in W. Babylon :Smarty:
An upper main bearing half worn to the copper leads me to suspect that you may have a line bore issue with the motor. But since you have worn bearings, then I think you have found your noise. I would.. Have the mains align honed, which is a tricky proceedure to do it right on a BBB.. the big mains really cause havoc to machinists used to working on smaller mains (chevies, mopars, and fords). So you need a guy with a dedicated "big bore" align hone. My guy has one that just does my engines, and every once in a while, he gets a new one, and I give him a block to break it in on. Check the rod big end housing size, open the clearances up to .0025 on the mains and rods, and get it back together. You would be surprised at how easy it is to completely cover the pickup with rag lint.. I did it on a 430 I build back when I was in high school, and we were shocked when we located the source of our low oil pressure, the pickup was completely covered. I took it to my machinist, and first thing he asked was if I was wiping everything off instead of using compressed air to dry the parts. I said yes, and he looked at me and said "Rag lint, buy a compressor.." Same machinist I have today.. 22 years later.. We are both older and fatter.. with less hair.. ou: But have done alot of Buicks together.
due to the size of the mains.. do you think a diesel place would be able due to the larger bore? heck the larger cyl bore maybe do-able by them too if it needed it. just an idea.
