Okay guys, hopefully this will be the start of a LONG thread. I have pulled the motor from my 1969 Riviera and will be building it top to bottom, everything came out wonderfully today and it is now completely disassembled. If you have never seen 30+ year old oil, if you want to call it that, believe me, it is not a pretty sight. My 32,000 mile motor isn't worth a hill of beans right now, but hopefully you guys can help me change all of that quickly. I need a new crank, #6 is GONE, I need advice from top to bottom, I am contemplating two options; A) a bone stock APPEARING rebuild and restoration but with modified internals, as radical as possible while maintaining driveability with stock manifolds, intake, etc. or... B) a slightly more modified approach with headers, an aluminum intake and slightly more modified internals, still with an emphasis on driveability. Keep in mind, this will definitely be kept 100% stock on the outside, only under the hood is what I'm concerned with. I am leaning MORE TOWARDS OPTION "A", as I don't like things typically that are not original in appearance, but it could be a little more fun and I would, of course, keep all of the stock parts. I am needing help in all areas, including machine work, oiling, choice of intake should I go with plan "B", should I bore?, what type of pistons/CR/etc., gaskets, camshaft, etc., etc., etc. By the way, understand, even with plan "B" I am NOT talking about building a race car, just a slightly modified street car that will still maintain the factory A/C, etc. I will totally nix plan "B" if I cant use all the factory hookup for vacuum ports, etc. without the stock intake. I think truly I would like to get maximum performance using all the stock cast iron components (plan "A"). Oh yeah, figure it with a 3.42 gear as well and I could upgrade the torque converter as well if necessary, again, this won't be a race car (so to speak). Please help me, I know the basics but need advice as most of my hands on experience has been with Mopar, and I know how different they are. I did rebuild my '72 Stage1 but that was in 1986 and I doubt I did half of the things I should've. Let's roll! Thanks in advance!!!
OK. Well, first off, please sign your posts so we can be on a friendly first-name basis. We're all family here! :beer Now. You'll want to get the oil passage boring drill bits from TA Performance and have the machine shop open up the passages. Add the TA 5/8" center sump for your oil pan. Go to my webpage and read all I did to my 455. Duplicate that build and your 430 will run high 13's, have GREAT street manners, idle at 850 RPM, and sound real good. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/jholthenrichs/rivprogres.htm Halfway down the 1st screen click on the link labled New 455 Buildup. You should use .030 over replacement cast pistons unless you want to go forged. It isn't necessary unless your car will see abuse (like mine does ). Use no less than 2 1/2" exhaust, and TA's is nice, but I had to have new head pipes made because for whatever reason my car didn't like the TA pipes. It may be just as cost effective to have the whole system fabbed. But use a shop that has a mandrel bender and that BUTT WELDS every connection! Your stock intake is very heavy, but the aluminum ones don't have the provision for your thermal vacuum switch. Your call - performance and less weight vs stock appearance. You'd do well to have the stock one ported. Your stock 430 heads are nice and will flow quite well with the standard valves and a nice port job. You exhaust manifolds will limit the results of any mods you make on the intake side of things. So there is a limit to your results when using the manifolds. My TA Shorties are VERY nice pieces, but as soon as I installed them I had wicked hot-start problems that were only remedied with the installation of a Ford starter solenoid. Which will DEFINATELY not look stock. Just an FYI. My cam is a great street cam. Use the main studs. Get the mains align honed. Use TA's dual-grooved cam bearings. Use their oil pump booster plate and adjustable regulator. My timing cover has had the oil passages ported by JW. A nice addition. I can rebuild your engine wiring harness. The only pieces that won't look stock are the colors of the visible wires to the coil and trans kickdown, and the weather boot on the trans kickdown. I use OEM friction tape to wrap it. If your harness is as brittle, cracked and spliced as mine was, it will make a difference. My oil pressure sending unit has never worked in conjunction with my in-tank fuel pump since I got the car. I don't know if yours does. BALANCE THE ENGINE!!! BALANCE THE ENGINE!!! BALANCE THE ENGINE!!! BALANCE THE ENGINE!!! Replace the harmonic balancer with a new OEM one by TA. Don't even THINK about reusing your 35 year old one. They are cheap insurance. Use the Rollmaster double roller timing chain. Don't go crazy with the torque convertor. Too high a stall will get annoying if you aren't racing it. Stay with 2500 or so. You'll be OK. Let me know what else I can do for you.
If you are thinking about the stock appearing route, you should go to the "bench" section and read about the "restoration HP project". Jim Weise is heading up a project (through donations from members) to make as much HP as possible, through different combination, and still appear stock appearing. He had talked about doing this sometime in April, but I don't know what the schedule is any more. This might be a good source for a lot of information for you when it is done. And I'm sure the project could always use a couple more bucks! Check out the thread, it will show you what I'm talking about. Your other scenario "b" is pretty much what I'm doing. Able to drive the AC (If it worked) and power brakes. Reasonable idle. Good driveability. Low maintenance. The key to a combo like this is the heads. I went with TA Performance stage 2 Aluminum heads. It's pretty hard to beat the benefit per dollar of Aluminum heads. JW will be dynoing my motor on Monday morning, so I can pass on some numbers to you Tuesday if you want. The motor has been built for mid range torque. The rest of the car will appear stock, untill you open up the hood and see all that Aluminum looking at you :laugh: . Should be fun. Also, listen to Yardley. He's a great source of information, and has helped me out plenty. Check out his website, lot's of good info. The only thing he said that I tend to disagree with, is the pistons. If you are going to rebuild, throw some forged pistons in regardles. The price difference is not that great, and you'll never have to worry about a piston breaking. Thanks, Brett Schmahl
Before you do anything.... Answer these two questions: -What are my goals with this engine/car? -How much do I want to spend? You'll find they go hand in hand. If you're honest with yourself at this point, it will help you a ton, in being happy with your project when your complete. Fast and cheap usually don't go together.....at least not with Buicks. Not trying to scare you off (because I think what you're talking about doing is awesome), just trying to give you some helpful info. Brett
I'll let you know Z, I'll tally up how much I still need after I'm done selling all these near NOS original '73 parts and sheetmetal I have.
Yardley and Brett, you guys are an immense help, Mike Z...well, I think I'll stick with Yardley and Brett on this one. I have printed all your information thus far to use as reference material. Does anyone else have any ideas as far as a total package is concerned?
Brad, What exactly is it, condition and cost? Any ideas on how much to ship? I'll check your response tomorrow, it's late and I'm going to check on the Riviera at my shop! Thanks!!! Mike
Would $60 sound fair? It from a 430 I do have some from 455's but I believe they are all the same? They are all sitting in a row now ( I've got 5 engines in pieces to build 1)and I don't know which is for what engine? As far as shipping is concerend I don't have a clue? My potal code is L4N 0H5 if that helps . What does it weigh??? As far as condition ??? None were spun ,but I would say any used crank should be turned to get the clearances right!
430 and 455 cranks are identical. They'll swap no problem. If you tell me just what you are looking to spend and just what you plan to do with the car, I can give you a 375 to 500+HP package idea.
What I'm thinking is: *Stock intake and exhaust manifolds *Stock heads, three-angle valve job and maybe a little cleaning up, nothing extravagant *stock bore, maybe .030 over, flat tops if possible (stock pistons have a little dish)? *camshaft & lifters...what's the most radical I can go before it begins a negative effect??? Any examples of which grind to buy? Several sound good on the T/A and Poston sites! * high volume oil pump and spacer (what exactly is the best set up here?) *oiling passage boring and 5/8 pickup *Rollmaster timing chain *stock carburetor *all new T/A bearings, gaskets, etc. *I may step to a 2500 stall??? Is this a good choice? I definitely don't want it too radical *2 1/2" exhaust w/Dynomax mufflers, I think 3" will be overkill and I don't want clearance probs...this is not going to be a race car *3.42 Posi Keep in mind, this motor is VERY clean and really doesn't need bored or anything, only real damage is the #6 journal on the crank, so it will need replaced, the damage is too deep. Otherwise everything will probably clean up/polish/hone, no problem. Should I still machine it? I guess my thoughts are, by going this route I will save as much as possible because I'm not buying an intake, headers, etc. and I really don't want them anyway. This kind of made my decision for me...I'll be happier and save money!!!
430 pistons have a very shallow dish and 10:1 compression. With a cast iron intake and exhaust manifolds you are limited in potential power output and as far as what you can put in the motor (too much cam won't get you anywhere due to the intake and exhaust restriction). The cam you want is what I use and what Jim Weise uses in his level 1 build. It is TA's 288-94H. .488" /.488" lift, 230*/240* @ .050" on a 114 LC. With your heavy car you don't want a bigger cam than this. This cam was personally selected for my 69 Riv by Jim Weise and I run low 13's all day and it idles real nice at 850RPM and handles the power brakes and AC just fine. I DID have to put an accelerator solenoid on the carb that raises the idle when I kick the AC on, but that was cheap and took about a half hour to do. You want this cam degreed on a 108 CenterLine. I had to advance this cam 8* I think to get there, but Lord, what a nice setup. JW nailed it. But he's good, so I expected nothing less. Your Rollmaster timing chain with TA's 8-way gear will give you all the options you'll need to get there. With a stock intake, don't do much head porting. A little will help, but anything more won't get you anywhere, you'll just be spending money needlessly. The high velocity narrow runners on your iron intake will dump the fuel into a highly ported head and it will slow down the charge tremendously. I just saw this on a buildup that should have had much higher dyno numbers than it did, and we can only point fingers at the stock intake mating to the well ported heads. DON'T use a high volume oil pump!!!!!!!!!!!! Just use a stock oil pump (you can buy new stock gears if yours are scored) and TA's booster plate and adjustable regulator. When installing the regulator turn it in until only about 1/4" of threads are exposed. The timing cover oiling mod and the rear galley oiling mod aren't necessary, especially if you open up the oiling passages. Be sure your block is hot tanked really well. If the crosshatches are still evident on the cylinder walls, then there's no need to have the block machined. I WOULD, however, have the mains align honed and by all means, use main studs instead of the bolts. That's about $200 well spent. Also, be certain to have your engine balanced. A new crank will require you to have your pistons, flex plate and balancer balanced with it. Don't let anyone talk you out of this. You'll be sorry. Believe me! If you don't need to bore it, your original 430 pistons will be perfect for you, if they're in good shape. They have a high compression. If it is a low mileage motor, you may even get by without reringing it, but I'd spend the few extra $$$ and put new rings on it while the slugs are out. The convertor will be OK. A little looser would be beneficial, to like 2800, but you'll certainly be OK with 2500. Your 430, basically stock with a cam, will give you about 375 HP and probably over 500 lb ft of torque. You'll run 14.70's all day long, which, for a basically stock car, and a heavy one to boot, is really pretty good. Headers and an aluminum intake (which can be painted red to look stock AND shave 40+ lbs off the nose) will drop you down to 14.30's. You should also consider having John Osborne set up your Q-jet. It'll run better without a doubt. But I did develop hot start problems once I added headers. I had to use a Ford solenoid to fix that. If you don't want points, then get Daves Small Body HEI's to convert your original distributor to an electronic trigger and use an MSD. They DO make a difference! The MSD can be hidden pretty well so the car still looks stock. Also, any more mods than this will push the need for fuel past what your electric in-tank fuel pump can provide. Just be warned. I rebuild engine wiring harnesses, so if yours is brittle I can take care of it for you. Oh, and when pulling the engine, did you just unbolt the harness from the firewall and pull the engine with it still attached to the engine?? If not, then pull the harness out of the car now and when the engine is on the stand go ahead and wire it up! VERY convenient for us and you don't have to mess with bolting on the starter and hooking up wires from underneath! Also, if you didn't pull your tranny out with it still bolted to the motor, then do yourself a favor and pull it out from under the car now!! I have pulled and installed my engine and tranny as a unit every time and as long as the pulley is not bolted to the crank it'll drop right in. It makes it very convenient to bolt on the trans and torque convertor while it is out of the car. So, when you drop it in the trans and wiring harness and starter and manifolds are already in place! Going from an engine on a hoist to running car is a very short process with our Rivs if you plan ahead and do all the dirty work beforehand. The only things you'll need to bolt on the engine after it is installed are the carb and fan. You should even install the alternator while it is on the stand. Let me know what questions you have!
Yardley, Thanks so much for all of your help. Thanks to everyone else who chimed in as well, it is GREATLY appreciated! I have printed out your last post and will be using it as a guideline (along with all the others). I spoke to Mike today at T/A Performance and he said if anyone should know, you should! He concurred with everything you told me. He was great, they will definitely be getting my money...hey, it's gotta go somewhere, right? Anyway, I think I will end up with EXACTLY what your last post described and hopefully a VERY strong 13.5 to 14.5 second car. Not really that concerned, just want a car that is pretty much stock looking but will blow the doors off of most unsuspecting fools in Mustangs, Camaros or, worse yet...POS rice burners. Regards, Mike Berkemeier
Mike, I just got my motor back for my riv from JW. Dynoed at 550ft lbs and 530 hp. Still idles at approx 800 rpm. If your going to go through all the trouble of a quality rebuild, you might want to conisder the aluminum head route. Heads are what trully makes the power. Brett
Brett, What type of componentry are you utilizing? I want a stock appearance so aluminum heads are out of the question for me. I will probably have to settle for a little less horsepower! Mike
Beyond The Motor... WHEN IT COMES TO THE TRANS, IF YOU USE THE TH400 BEHIND IT SPRING FOR A SET OF 3.00:1 RATION 1ST GEAR SEAT-HUGE IMPROVEMENT GETTING OUT FROM A STOP, ESP WITH THE PREVIOUSLY RECOMMENDED ENGINE INFO. THERE ARE SOME REAL GOOD RIV GUYS ON THE BOARD, HELL I'D EVEN SAY JEFF IS GOOD-DON'T TELL ANYONE I SAID THAT. :Brow:
