I have a guy (he's an A**HOLE) who want to race me when my truck is done. He has a 289 or 302 in gen 1 mustang with a single 4 barrel carb nothing special. I have a 401 with dual 650cfm carbs pretty much stock engine with a SP400 in my 1950 AD Chevy truck. DO I HAVE A CHANCE?
I think he's got the weight advantage on his side, all things being equal... What year Mustang? Do you have posi in your truck? Your weight distribution to the rear tires could be an issue for you. I say you could beat him once you have your suspension and traction worked out, but straight out of the box with a stock chassis and supension you won't be far behind. Your switch pitch gives you an advantage once you get that set up right, too.
It's hard to say. Stock, his motor probably made 230hp. When you say nothing special, what does that mean? A carb/intake, headers, and a cam can go along way on a SB Ford. Plus, a Mustang is fairly light at only about 3200-3300lbs. Your motor, as it sits, best case scenario, is making 300hp. I'm not sure what your truck weighs, but I think 3600lbs is a conservative estimate after some quick Googling. So, he (assuming 3200lbs and 230 flywheel horsepower) will roughly run 14.96 in the 1/4mi. You (assuming 3600lbs and 300 flyhweel horsepower) will roughly run 14.24 in the 1/4mi. Of course these are only gross guesstimations. Alot more info would be needed about both vehicles to come up with an accurate conclusion. But at this point, it looks like you'd at least have a fighting chance.
325 horse from the factory with a single 4. So him adding a second one dropped him 25 hp??? explain that one to me
Well I hope a buddy of mine doesn't find this post (not likely,,,he's a big ford fan),,he has a '93 coupe,,,stock 302,,,,never been opened up,,,something goofy like 4.56 gears,,,on street slicks its ran a 12.80,,,,I keep telling him my 401 will adjust his mirrors on its way past him (which will never happen),,,but it shuts him up,,,kind of the beauty of no one really knowing what a Nailhead is!!!! Best of luck with the race,,,,hope you can shut him up,,,,if I where you,,,id find a track somewhere and go do some tuning and get that puppy dancing before you end up on "pinks" with this guy!!!!:beers2:
I had a 401 in a 64 skylark... sp turbo... 4.11 posi gear,,, supercat cam,,, holley 950 3 barrell carb.... cold air pkg.... My friend had a 62 Ford pick up,,, he put a new 427 side oiler with a hot cam , holley single 4 ,, ect... with headers... posi gear 3.55.... He is gonna really put it on me.... I beat him repeatedly....3 in a row.... didnt run off and leave him because he was a pro mechanic that owned a shop ... and knew how to set a rod up... the truck was set up right...
I would think that on the street the torque of a Buick 401 would easily handle a ford 302. He may have a higher top end, but from 0 to 70 (80, 90?) you should have him.
Andy, Where are you coming up with all these tidbits of information? There are a number of us gearheads who were driving nailheads to high school in the 50's and 60's (I'm guessing that was before you were born) and as long as I've been at this, you're the first person to state that they were "over rated at the factory." Buick had no reason to over state or under state the hp of their engines because all Buick engines were rated by torque. Could you send me the link to the website where you get your information? Or is it the same site where you got your info on the SP400? Thanks, Ed
It's more a matter of personal opinion, as nobody has dynoed a bone stock Nailhead, to my knowledge. I've looked at the dyno's people have posted of some Nailheads, and played around with multiple dyno programs. In my mind, there is no way a stock Nailhead made 325hp. Some combo's with hotter cams, a good amount of portwork, and headers only made 370-380hp. A cam, ported heads, and a good flowing exhaust is certainly worth more than 45-55hp. Call me crazy, but I'm a realist. Also, this isn't the first time this has come up on the board. I'm sure if you do enough digging, you'll find more on the subject. Also, what website are you refering to about the ST400? I can't tell if your being sarcastic, as in I posted misinformation, or if your being serious.
You know,,,, i have heard that before,,,, but,,,, my 401 nail head did not have any problem staying with engines that were of a more modern design....for instance,,, 383 chrysler, 413 chrysler, 440 chrysler, chrysler hemi,, ford 390, ford 406 [single carb version] ford 427,, and 428 cobra jet, chevy 396, chevy 350, pontiac 383,,, olds 400, [this one ran stronger than the other gm engines that i raced] Now all those engines either had better valves, more cubes than the nail had or both,,,,, What did beat me was a unknown engine 57 chevy,,, and a 440 six pack dodge challenger [1970]....That is why I say, don't ever sell a nail head short,,, and if we start talking about a Blueprinted nailhead, that is a whole nother ball game,,,, I mean one that has had the block decked parallel to the centerline of the crank and then clean up bore, and the rods done and the whole thing balanced, and the heads taken to min. volume and the pistons to perfect specs... multi angle valve job ect... NO it has been my experience that cubic inch for cubic inch the nail heads can hold their own....
Well said doc! Thats taken from a die-hard f*rd guy taking the side of the Nailhead! Andy- The problem (or advantage- depending on how you look at it) is those calculators are formulas based on Horsepower curves- not torque. How well you use the Nailheads torque with the right trans gearing/tire size/rear-end/stall speeds, can make all the difference. Sounds like you had the right combo in your Lark, Doc!:3gears:
Andy, I looked back through your posts and I owe you an apology; it apparently wasn't you that was calling the 64 transmission an ST400 and the 65/66 transmission an SP400. But, in my defense, I knew it was someone who was stating an opinion as a fact. There are a lot of facts to consider and a lot of opinions that need to remain unposted unless asked for. You also have to consider where the hp is being measured. If you're talking about the original posting, you have to remember that these original figures were measured at the flywheel. All hp ratings for engines built since sometime in the early 70's are measured as net hp. That means the engine with all accessories, driving through a transmission, and the rear end is measured at the tires. Prior to that, i.e. the Nailhead era, horsepower ratings were measured as SAE Gross figures; a stripped engine, hooked directly to a dynomometer. If you were to measure the 401's hp at the rear wheels, it would definately fall short of the published 325 hp. In 1970, the 455 Buick was rated at 370 hp in the Riviera, in the following year, the same basic engine (both engines before emissions and unleaded fuel) was rated at 255 horsepower. Not that many engine changes, but the hp was measured differently. If we use these two similar engines as a basis for calculating "Net = x% of Gross" then at 70% (255/370) then the 63-66 401 with 325 gross hp would produce about 225 net hp at the rear wheels. I've been watching Pass Time whenever it's on locally and I have seen full bodied Mustangs with a 302 run a full two seconds faster than an injected nailhead dragster running on alcohol. Tuning, driver, tires, gears, temperature, track surface, and the availablility of aftermarket "go fast parts" go into determining who is going to win any particular race. Oh yeah, and how many $$$$$$ has the guy invested in that small block. If it weren't for all of these and more variables, and the fact that you enjoy tinkering with an "old engine," you might as well just run your race on one of your computer programs. Ed
Ok, let me redeem myself a little bit. Erik, I realize the calculators aren't dead nuts accurate. That's why I said it's "a gross guesstimation". It'll at least give you a general idea if your tap dancing down jackass alley, but it certainly isn't a replacement for a real world race. Ed, thanks for the apology. However, I'm not just posting opinion as fact. I've done a pretty intensive amount of digging, and comparing different combos (that HAVE been dynoed). I can back up what I'm saying, although it would take a significant amount of time to compile all of the data. Don't believe me, that's your choice. The different horsepower rating systems have nothing to do with what I was talking about. Toss a bone stock Nailhead on a dyno - at the crank it will have less than 325hp. Just becuase I use some of the tools at my disposal (i.e. computer programs) doesn't mean I'm any less of a racer. I know there are alot of variables, which is why I said in the beginning it was "a gross guestimation". Trust me, I can hustle a race car around a short track, or down a drag strip. As the old saying goes; put up, or shut up :grin: . Very true Cheryl.
"I've been watching Pass Time whenever it's on locally and I have seen full bodied Mustangs with a 302 run a full two seconds faster than an injected nailhead dragster running on alcohol. Tuning, driver, tires, gears, temperature, track surface, and the availablility of aftermarket "go fast parts" go into determining who is going to win any particular race. Oh yeah, and how many $$$$$$ has the guy invested in that small block." Ed take it easy on the Nailhead guy until he gets the bugs out. That run is the result of a TCI converter that was set-up wrong using a Chevy type formula to build my converter. That was the 3rd pass with it and it was destroyed. Lesson learned from this dragster is only the Chevy parts have brokenou: . As for can you beat the Ford yes just make sure you leave him on the line and let him chase you down:laugh: . If it is a race on a track = bracket race he will most likely break out trying to catch you. A win is a win:TU:
In one post you write: "They were over rated from the factory. Simple as that." Sounds like someone was drawing on facts somewhere. In another post you write: "It's more a matter of personal opinion, as nobody has dynoed a bone stock Nailhead" You admit it is just your opinion. Then most recently you write: "However, I'm not just posting opinion as fact." Now you've got me confused. You went on to state that you've dynoed a lot of engines. You're also very active on this site so I'm assuming you own a nailhead. Why haven't you dynoed one? I guess you're telling me that because you've dynoed a 289 Ford, you can tell me from your experience what I should expect from the 289 Studebaker in an Avanti. Please make up your mind. If you have facts, post them. If not PLEASE state that "In my opinion......" There are a ton of guys on here who are trying to sort out the basics. It's up to the responder to quote a fact or not reply at all. Sometime when I have time to go through all my notes on the subject, I'll tell you why the US Air Force used two 401 cubic inch Buick "Nailheads" (They referred to them as "Wildcats") to power the start carts for their SR-71 Black Birds. They turned down the Chrysler Hemi and the Big Block Chevy until Buick quit producing the nailhead, at which time they did switch to a BBC but only after it had been given a large dose of aftermarket high performance equipment "to bring up the torque specs." Lots of guys live by the addage "There's no replacement for displacement." If I read Doc correctly, whom I listen to with great respect, I think he'd say "There's no replacement for torque." Ed
