Anyone running Mass Flo EFI System or Holley Avenger System? I am looking for feedback on these systems.
Dear Maurice and V-8 Buick members, I don't anything about the Holley system and to be perfectly honest, don't know much more about the Mass-Flo system either. The last time this topic was properly visited is here: http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=227223. I really like the physics behind the Mass-Flo system. However, I couldn't find anyone who has actually gotten in installed on any Buick engine. When I called the Mass-Flo folks, they gave me a very terse reply insisting that it worked. Finally, I went with Jim Weise's recommendation of an EZ-EFI system. There was a protracted discussion on the matter here: http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=232278. My situation is rather unique, I'm having an engine built in Minnesota by Jim Weise, but it will put into a car in California. That made it really hard to go with a Speed-Density EFI system. From a purely theoretical standpoint, mass flow systems have a lot going for them. However, I agree with the Mass-Flo critics that their system is a little too much "one size fits all" based on older technology. If you can, get a Speed-Density system installed and have it professionally tuned. I hope someday to eventually update to that. Or alternatively hope that the Mass-Flo folks come up with a next generation system that really is shown to perform well on Buick engines. Cheers, Edouard :beer
oops somereason i thought mass-flow was tbi.. both systems would do you great. The holly system sounds like it'll have more tuning perameters
I had a FIR*T mass flow in the 90s. It worked great, almost no tuning. That is because it directly measures how much air goes into the engine, other systems just guess. Tuning is just improving the guess. My mass flow is on the shelf, because 1. Car was junked; 2. It had no ignition timing function; 3. The plumbing into the intake is clumsy, and far more critical not to leak. 4. There was no OX sensor or idle speed feedback. Bruce Roe
I am getting ready to start gathering parts for another 350 build for my 68. I figured why not do fuel injection this time.
EFI is a great way to go so here is my take on the subject. Mass flow is one of the best methods in that it actually measures the air mass entering the engine however the "Mass Flo EFI System" brand is based on an OEM computer that is not programmable by the user. If you are one of the fortunate users that bolts it on and it works for you 1<SUP>st</SUP> time Great However if it doesnt match your engine configuration then you have to send it back to get it reprogrammed and in some cases multiple times. Personally I want the ability to experiment and this unit doesnt lend itself to that. The self learning TBI systems have been working well for most users. You get to set a few base parameters and the system learns and makes changes as you drive. If you make a change either to the engine or in the system then the learning begins again. Most systems only have a 1 bar MAP sensor so if you decide to go with a supercharger or turbo later you will need something else. There are systems like the Powerjection III that has a 2 bar MAP. I far as I know these systems do not control the engine timing but that may change in the near future. The Multiport EFI systems give you all the flexibility you need. One of the most important features that people miss in all the discussions is: The MPFI removes all the restrictions on intake manifold design because you no longer have to worry about locating the runners to meet a carburetor throttle plate or TBI at some fixed location. You can do something like this: <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com </o> <font color=" /><o></o> <FONT color=black><o></o><FONT color=black>You get to control fuel and spark and can experiment for best power and fuel economy. <FONT color=black>There is a lot more but you get the idea. If you are comfortable with a laptop and don't mind venturing out then I recomend a MPFI system. If you want to trade flexibility for easy installation then go TBI. Paul
good post. best tbi is the new holly tbi avenger? setup best mpfi setups from my research are the new holly hp/dominator along with the acell
Desires and patience! (Re: Mass Flo or Holley EFI System) Hi Paul and V-8 Buick members, Oooh! I've gotta have that!!! Trouble is, . . . . all I've got is this: I've gotta wait until Jim turns it into more of something like this: Oh well, I guess I've just gotta be good and find a little more patience!! Have a nice weekend everybody!! Cheers, Edouard :beer
A lot of earlier EFI systems did nothing with the spark advance. My own experience, there is more gain for the effort from a programmable ignition system. I managed to get a crank trigger system together for $200 (many yard parts), and it was really worth while. Some advantages: 1. Way cheaper than fuel injection; 2. You can keep your old HEI in place while experimenting, and as backup; 3. Supplies spark curves for a fuel only EFI system; 4. Eliminates timing chain slack and other mechanical variation; 5. A waste fire type eliminates the distributor. Bruce Roe
Wow, a lot of confusing info here. You can tune a TBI the same way you can a MPFI, it depends on the ECM. There are a lot of simple systems out there, TBI or MPFI but as mentioned when you omit the spark control you're short changing yourself. And you can still use a crank trigger with most any system and that has some clear cut advantages. The Mass-Flo stuff uses a '93 Ford EEC-IV ECM, hardly state of the art. It still uses chips and has severe limitations. And if you want to know how well the "self learning" PJIII is just browse this forum, you'll see it took guys 900+ posts to get it right, is that really self learning? There are better systems out there, FAST, Accel and so on. Pick the one that's right for you. I'm an Accel dealer and give great support. Consider that in your choice. Jmo.
I'm here to learn as well as be corrected when off base. I made reference to the "Self Learning" TBI systems only. Which "Self Learning" TBI systems allow you access to the fuel map as well as all the associated adjustment tables same as a MPFI system. BTW our first turbo car used the Accel DFI system. Went 7.03 @ 199mph first time out. Paul
I thought you were an Accel guy, same as Bruce I think, it's a fantastic system that unfortunately has gotten a bad rap at times. PJII allows access to the fueling tables, FAST doesn't, at least not like the PJIII. and Holleys Avenger is limited, HP has more access. But as you know if attempted correctly you can tune a non "self learning" system fairly easily and they typically give you more overall tuneability beyond that. With the right instruction it's not that hard and some have much better software than others.
I have read your posts in response to my question. Very interesting. I have also reviewed the Mass Flo EFI system. I looks to be a really well thought out and put together system. I am going to email them to see what type of computer they are running. They claim to be using an off the shelf mass production unit. If so then why cannot I program it like many other systems?
Please keep up informed (Re: Mass Flo EFI System) Dear Maurice and V-8 Buick members, Do let us know what you find out. When I contacted them, some of their key people were on vacation that might have contributed to the "cool response" I got. I just wasn't willing to risk my new engine without some really enthusiastic "I love the Mass Flo system" testimonials from big-block Buick engine owners. If I recall correctly, they are using Ford chip technology of the 90s. It isn't beyond reprogramming, but you need to send the chips back to Mass Flo. The process is described on their website here: http://www.massfloefi.com/programming-c-31/mass-flo-efi-computer-reprogram-p-94. There are very positive testimonials from folks using more popular brands of engines. The concept certainly seems viable. I just really got cold feet because nobody on V-8 Buick stepped up to the mike and sung the praise of Mass Flo. With 30,000 members on this forum, that's a lot of Buick lovers. If you can't find a single Mass Flo fan here, . . . . like I said - I got cold feet. uzzled: Cheers, Edouard :beer
It's a very antiquated and limited system by todays standards, let's just leave it at that. It still uses chips for crissake. I've had first hand experiences with it, not fun. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnSi6FgMXjE
