Hi, I`m interested in what kind of lock-up system you are using for your TH200-4R? Are you satisfied, does it work well for you? How was the installation? Need one for my transmission in my 1971 Buick GS 455. Jens
There's several options from a dedicated arduino system to a simple toggle switch. First, how is your trans setup? Do you have the necessary plumbing and wiring in the transmission to provide lockup? Second, be sure you have a brake interlock so that when the brakes are on, the lockup is not. Otherwise, it could be dangerous, akin to locking the brakes on a manual without hitting the clutch. What are your goals beyond locking the converter? Any specific requests?
Good point, always use a brake switch so the lockup shuts off when you hit the brakes otherwise your engine can stall under braking. TCI makes a good kit, overpriced but it works well... This kit uses a vacuum switch to control lockup. I found just using a toggle switch and the brake switch was good for me as I liked having complete control. Factory had it setup so that 12 V is always to the trans and the switches are on the ground side of the circuit, so that is where I put the switches.
Hi, thanks for your fast replies. I have a CK-Performance build TH200 4R that has been in the car for 5 long (and lasting) years. Because I get some leaking from the front, I`ll pull it this spring and while doing so try to get things ready for a converter change and new sealing and so on. Now my big surprise: I always thought (foolish thing to to) that I had a non-lock-up transmission.but quite sure it`s not like that. I`ll verify when I`ll pull the pan in the next weeks, but did contact Chris who told me that they usually build lock up versions. So it would have been a specific request for a non lock up unit that I didn`t do, voila, I`m pretty sure it`s a lock up version. Transmission worked good and still does despite leaking, never had it wired up, but I imagine that some loss of fluid in the past, that just occured and dissapeard might have been, in retrospect, a sign for overheating. So, I think it has everthing it needs to get wired up, Chris wrote it`ll work with the OEM system.of course, the Buick never had it, that`s why I need you to guide me into the right direction so I`ll finally get it right.. you live you learn (Alanis Morissette) Jens
I have the B&M kit, which is neat as you can set the "speed" at which lock-up applies. Me, I only want lockup at highway speeds >60mph. Unfortunately the kit does not include the switch that is needed to deactivate the lock-up when brake is applied. As mentined in previous posts, that seems a necessacity.
Hi Patrick, Grsse nach Mnchen! Maybe I don`t get it right, (as I`m a newbie to the lock-up game) but if the configuration in the transmission is for lockup only in 4th gear, and I use, for city cruising, only the first 3 gears by putting the transmission in 3rd, then I should not have any lockup issuses whatsoever ? Do I get this right? Good point about the brake switch, seems necessary. Jens
Hi, From factory the 200R4 can be locked up in 2nd, 3rd or 4th, however the way that CK does the lockup is a really clever setup that requires no wiring and it locks only when cruising in 4th and un-locks when you hit the brakes. I would try to get the part number for your torque converter to confirm if you have a non-lockup version and then go from there. There is nothing wrong with driving around the city in 1st through 3rd with no lockup. The only time there is an issue with running not locked up is for extended highway use. The trans are designed to be locked up when at high rates of speed and not locking them up can overheat and fry the trans.
I saw a thread that a guy used his cruise control switch for lockup. I'm thinking about going this route since I removed the cruise control in my regal.
Short of a computer controlled system this by far is the best way IMO. It's how I had a 700-r4 wired up in my first '69 Firebird. A pressure switch that grounds the TCC in 4th and then just a single wire out the plug for +12v, run that through a relay for the brake pedal (should open the circuit when the brake is pushed), which I got a cruise control brake pedal switch and wired it up through the second plug on it.
Unless someone else did it too, that was probably me. I would be happy to provide you my schematic. Works great and nothing other than stock looking in the cabin. Mark
CK trannies need some "mods" (Re: Lock-up system for TH200 4R ?) Dear Jens, Greg, Sean, Patrick, usetaboost, Randal, and V-8 Buick 200-4R lockup converter experts, I can't be sure I got the same setup as you did, but I asked Chris specifically to make a lock-up 200-4R when I ordered one back in 2011. When I finally got around to trying to make it work in 2013 I discovered it that had a one-wire setup to the lockup converter. This made it incompatible with the TCI and I believe B&M setup. Both require a setup that has control of the solenoid - power and ground. Chris suggested simply energizing the power to the lockup converter. Until getting into overdrive, nothing would happen. When the car shifted into overdrive (according to Chris) the car would also lockup and that would be "fine." . . . If you read this thread carefully, you'll see why that isn't . . . "fine." :shock: Indeed you need a least a brake switch and even this might not be enough. In a collision, your engine would be still trying to deliver all it's torque and if the transmission doesn't release the lockup converter, even more damage will be done. In the end, I gave up on my CK-performance 200-4R in favor of a Art Carr 200-4R. The new transmission is performing better and according to Art Carr, the fuel economy to be gained by a lock-up converter isn't so great after all. A few percent may not be worth it, especially if it forces you to manually throw a switch and come up with wiring so the brake switch overrides the toggle. Honestly, I would have been very enthusiastic for the lockup converter if there was a well-designed electronic module to control it automatically. I looked into designing one but I don't have the electronics know-how to make such a thing. Perhaps you should consider being patient on this matter a bit longer. If you just wait, maybe an aftermarket manufacturer will introduce an electronics module that will control the lock-up converter in a reasonable way without any manual intervention. If something like this finally shows up, I might well buy it and get a lockup converter for my Art Carr 200-4R tranny. Best of luck with your Buick GS 455! :TU: Cheers, Edouard :beer
Somewhere on this forum there is potential to make one of these unicorn Lockup control modules. There simply needs to be some one willing to try it maybe as a prototype with all safety mechanisms in place. :bglasses:
Re: CK trannies need some "mods" (Re: Lock-up system for TH200 4R ?) It's not complicated, it's called fabrication! It takes a little experimentation and a little sweat to be an innovator. Thomas Edison didn't have a Harbor Freight and a Napa to go buy his parts from. My car has a brake disconnect & the TCI Lockup Kit: http://www.jegs.com/i/TCI/890/376600/10002/-1?parentProductId=748599 It works OK but it would work better with a tighter converter or a smaller cam though a TA212 is hardly a big cam. The issue I have is that when it goes into 4th, if the vacuum is high enough, it will lock up the converter as soon as it hits 4th. However, going from 3rd at 2200 into 4th and locking up the converter, drops the RPM to around 1500, which lugs the motor, drops the vacuum and it kicks the converter out of lockup, which raises the RPM and raises the vacuum, which again locks up the converter. And so goes the vicious cycle until you get a) let off and slow enough to drop into 3rd or b) manual pull it into 3rd to stop the jerking. I'm going to install a small module that has a programmable delay so that when it shifts to 4th it takes 5-7 seconds to lockup, giving the motor enough time to build up a bit of speed and vacuum to overcome the hunting. At the very least it will slow the frequency of the oscillation between locked and unlocked. If that doesn't suffice, I'm going to build an arduino setup, loosely based on black70buick's 4L80 project. This just goes to show there are plenty of options available though not all of them are available at Summit or Jeg's.
Re: CK trannies need some "mods" (Re: Lock-up system for TH200 4R ?) The B&M setup works just fine with a one wire lockup. No need to control the ground side as well as the solenoid simply grounds through its housing to the case of the trans. Proper body grounds are obviously important. You simply run the apply 12v apply wire from the B&M controller through the cruise control style brake switch so that when the brake is applied it interrupts the 12v. However, If you don't slow down below your threshold speed then the lockup immediately reapplies when you let off the pedal. My Extreme Automatics TH2004R is setup for 4th gear only lockup as I see no reason for 3rd gear to ever have a locked converter in a not EPA sanctioned car. But even if you did have 3rd gear lockup option there is no reason the B&M would not work. FYI I'm looking to add a small electronic timer circuit to the brake switch so that there is a short delay to lockup after releasing the pedal. I think it makes for an odd sensation to let off the brakes on the highway and feel the converter lock immediately. I have the module and a schematic but have not installed it yet, waiting for warmer weather. I think vaccume would be an ok way to automatically control the lockup on a very mild or stock cam engine but there are a lot of variables where I think you will have lockup when you dont want it with a wilder cam and the B&M kit forces it to only work at an easily set (and changed) speed.
Wow, we`re really getting into it.thanks for your comments so far. I would choose to run the car in the city in 3rd gear, not letting it interfere with the the lock-up mechanism. Edouard, your comment on how you would expect it to still transfer power in case of accident isn`t that comfortable a thought. But in case of emergency, the speed would drop, the gear would shift down, and out you should be of 4th gear, shouldn`t you ? But there seem to be alternatives, the B&M set Patrick and Ken speak of is speed controlled and Greg`s setup, though dropping the rpm noticably, seems to work too. Jens
Hi Ken, As I haven't yet installed the break switch, I would be curious about your schematic. Would you mind sharing it? Will send you my e-mail via PM. Patrick
Hi Jens, Gre in die Schweiz. This is the B&M I was referring to: http://www.bmracing.com/products/70...issions-using-lockup-style-torque-converters/ I stay "manually" in 3rd (or lower) unless driving on the Autobahn. 3rd gear is 1:1 so unless you have a ridiculous rear-geat that should be fine. On the Autobahn I shift into forth. The controller is set to let the lock-up kick in at above 110km/h, hence I have usually no lock-up anywhere else and no lugging engine issues. I like the setup, only that break-delete mechanism needs to get sorted. Patrick
I think you neglecting to remember we don't have antilock brakes and a sudden panic stop will lock the rear tires, killing the motor and leaving you without power steering and/or power brakes plus no power to motor out of whatever you where trying to avoid.
Speaking from experience I have had to do a pannic stop at 70 mph with a 700R4 with the converter locked up on a toggle switch. A car had cut off a semi truck who swerved into my lane so I hit the brakes to avoid rear ending the trailer. Much to my surprise the truck stalled and it was a factory EFI system. As soon as I hit the brakes the engine shut off and I lost my power brakes and steering. I re started the truck and got it stopped just barely in time. That truck never stalled before that and I had been driving it for years with the on off toggle. For normal use it is not an issue it is a sudden un planned stop that you want the brake switch for. Now if you guys have 99-06 gm trucks as daily drivers then consider this: i went with a Black Bear Tuning box on mine and I asked him if he could use the tow haul button to disable the lockup converter. Now I have the normal factory lockup function but I can over ride it instantly any time I want. When going up hills in 4th gear the lockup often stays on and the engine lug to a low rpm and then it downshifts. If I shut off the lockup on the same hill it will stay in 4th without lugging.. Then he sent me more tunes, one for towing, different octane tunes etc and I can switch tunes any time.
Greg, but then, unlocking via the brake switch while doing a panic stop would help, would n`t it? Or would it still kill the engine, and leave me pumping the brake pedal desperately? Like Patrick said, with speeds around 85-90mph on the autobahn I want to make sure whatever I got works well in case of emergency. Jens
