Hi Duane, We have been on judging teams together several times on the 64-72 cars. Last time, I think was at the BCA Buffalo Meet. What I thought you were saying is that you considered the halogens acceptable because they were a safety replacement. My mistake. I now realize that those lights have the correct appearance for that year, and that you could judge them as original. Anyway, I have come to advocate accepting "safety upgrades" even for 400 point cars, and had mistakenly thought your post was also saying that.
Harry, I got ya. Yeah we allow some upgrades like the new style POA valves for the AC cars and allow 2 1/2" exhaust, but generally try to toe the line as far as originality is concerned. With the BPG, Brad wanted me to allow any black Delco battery and a regular Delco oil filter, so that's what we did. (More like the BCA rules.) With the GSCA Concours class I allow a battery topper or the correct battery, but want to see the correct oil filter. The idea was if a car does good at the GSCA it would do good everywhere. Good talking to you. Duane Al, I think the Power Beam headlights started on some 73 GM models, but am not sure if the buicks had them then. I think my 74 Vette had them. That's something I need to look into. Maybe Brad would know.
I think it's time to change the rules. When you drive on the road with other vehicles that have modern equipment the current rules just don't make sense. Headlights, like radial tires, are safety items and points should not be deducted for them if they are not correct. But rather, points could be added if you do have the original style. I thought radials were already exempt.... maybe I'm mistaken? o No:
I have T-3 headlights on my 67 Riv and my 65 Wildcat (two on the 65 are the 68 and later style but they are certainly not reproductions!) They aren't very powerful but, believe it or not, they are just as powerful (on low beam at least) as my former 91 Park Avenue's halogens. And that's after I had replaced the bulbs and the beams (with new GM replacements) on my 91 as one of them had a small hole in it and the reflector wasn't too good in both... The non-halogen headlamps on my 75 Electra are different from the original GUIDE rectangular headlamps (I don't think anyone makes reproductions of these). I got them from my Buick dealer (they are made by General Electric). They are much more powerful than my 91's halogens! On the cars with light monitors, most of the halogen hedlights won't get light at the optical fiber. That's why I didn't put halogens.
nailheadina67 It is not time to change the rules, Concours cars are rarely driven so that should not be a consideration with judging these cars. There is no point adding system with a 400 point system. Everyone starts with 400 points and then points get deducted. If you want to drive a Concours car then go ahead and install halogens, just make sure you change them back before the show. I know some people that do this. They also take off their radials and put on the correct tires/rims for the shows. Duane
If that's the case, then cars that are driven to Buick club sponsored shows should not be judged using the 400 point system. Those of us who drive our cars should not be penalized for safety.....and IMO changing parts around just for a show is rediculas. For National events where the cars are awarded a silver or gold, you compete against yourself so it really doesn't matter. But when you have classes with first, second, and third place the 400 pt. system favors trailered cars. So what if the original bias ply tires are barely holding air, somwhat if the original headlights don't light up..........that's good?........ I'll bet if you put it to a vote, the majority of non-trailered show car participants would say to get rid of the 400 point system........it should be for trailered classes only. Perhaps if I trailered mine, I'd like it........it would give me an advantage. I've heard many complaints from people who have put their car in our local chapter BCA show, and many of them are so fed up with the 400 pt. system that they will not enter their car in our show anymore. For this reason our local chapter is considering participant judging for this years show. I agree with what they are saying, and safety and maintenence items are the source of their frustration. :bglasses:
Joe, Believe me I feel your pain. In the BPG and GSCA the classes that are judged with the 400 point system are only the Concours/Restored cars, which amounts to only a handful of cars each year. These cars are the trailer queens and are judged accordingly. All other cars are either judged by a 100 point system (GSCA) or by "Peer" judging, as was done by the BPG this year. These judging systems have worked fine in the past, although in the BPG we are currently voting on a new non-judged format for the regular classes for next year. It would allow modifieds, drivers, and restored non-concours cars to all be together on the same field with no penalties. No awards would be given for the regular classes, but everyone that has a car in the show would get something for participation. I agree with you about the BCA 400 point judging system, in regards to driven cars, and I am sure they are aware of it. I think they are currently working on guidelines for a "driven" class, and know they are working on rules for modified cars as well. If you think there is a problem with driven cars, you should try bringing a Modified car, like my X-Camino, to a BCA event. They just love modified cars! Unfortunately I have no say in anything the BCA comes up with, as far as judging guidelines. I am not part of that committee and to be honest, have my hands full with the BPG and GSCA Concours judging classes. If you feel strongly about this my advise is to contact the BCA and try to help with a solution. I am sure they would be willing to listen to what you have to say. Duane
Car Shows I see Joe's point and I think think one idea would to leave the original parts in a box to show you have the correct parts, like the haed lights for instance. Have the up grade lights on your car and have the correct ones in a box with the car. AL.
Al, I don't think that idea would work either. If it did I could show a Judge a picture of all the parts I have in my basement and get a Gold by dragging my frame to a show. I agree that is an extreme case, but the door would be open for something of that nature, and I am sure someone would try to do it. Duane
Car Shows After the replies to my post I feel a little foolish, but I guess what prompted me to make a post was I saw at some car shows owners changing intakes wheels and other acc. and having with the car showing the car is still complete. But I can see how this can get out of hand, AL.
At our show last summer some kid had his 80's Riv in the show and he lost points b/c he had the wrong hose clamps, and aftermarket filters, battery and plug wires. This car was very clean and sharp. His mother got so mad she walked up after the awards ceremony and started yelling at the judges........I helped judge his car, so I high tailed it out of there.......he had a nice car and I would have had to agree with her. I think he would have won something if there wasn't so many cars in his class. :bglasses:
Joe, It sounds like the judging for that regional show was 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. If it was a points judging the kid would have probably won something, and not left with a sour taste in his mouth. It is exactly due to reasons like this that we in the BPG offered our membership a chance to vote on how they wanted their show to be run. The voting will continue until the end of Feb 2005 to give the non-computer savy members a chance to vote. Non-members can also vote as long as they list either their V-8 call name, BCA number etc. The thread for this is posted on this website. It is under the Buick Events & Club Forum, under the Buick Performance Group Sub-forum. It lists what info is needed to log in a vote and lists the 3 options the show can take. If you have not seen it yet I would appreciate your looking at it and if interested placing your vote. This also goes for everyone. Duane
I was talking about our local show here in Buffalo that is judged using the 400 pt. system......the regional show I attended in Pittsburg was participant judged......I don't know if there was any complaints there or not. I missed the thread you mentioned, I'll have to check it out. :bglasses:
But, I digress. My experience in judging comes from the Classic Car Club of America. 100pt. system. No points are deducted for safety equipment. In fact, a car that does not have safety glass is automatically disqualified. (Most CCCA eligible cars were built before safety glass was common) You can add sealed beam headlights without penalty, seat belts without penalty. Many of this clubs 100pt. senior concours cars are driven regulaly, it is encouraged. A car that is trailered must be driven onto the show field under it's own power. And believe me, a trailered car has no better chance of scoring 100pts. than a car that was driven across the country to be judged. I have no first hand experience with the BCA judging, other than having read the rules and such. I came away shaking my head thinking "that doesn't sound like much fun!" I think clubs should deduct points for over restoration. :laugh: A factory fresh Buick with 0 miles wouldn't stand a chance. And isn't that really the benchmark?
This is funny.........at one show near Buffalo, Springville to be exact, one year there was this Nova race car entered in the show. We all knew it had to be trailered. The rules were that it had to be driven onto the show field, no trailered cars were allowed. The motor on this car was almost as big as the car, blower and all. Well, this thing must have had stale gas in it or something, we could hear it coming for about 20 minutes although we couldn't see it. When it finally got close enough to see, it was overheated and backfiring and hitting on only 2 or 3 cylinders and was loud as heck. He could barely keep it running and ended up having to push it for 2 blocks because he ran the battery dead trying to start it. I don't recall if it won or anything, but at the end of the day the wife and I were eating at Burger King about 2 or3 miles out of town, and there he had the trailer parked out back in the woods. That thing wouldn't even make up the ramps! We left before they were done so I don't know how they ever got it up into the trailer. Talk about all show and no go! :laugh:
After replacing all of my non-halogen sealed beams with halogen sealed, my light monitors were brighter then they had even been. I also made sure the the fiiber optic ends were clean. I may have even taken a razor blade to one of them to slice off the old dirty end and expose fresh fiber. Just make sure its a staight, clean cut.
I never bought round halogen sealed beams but most of the rectangular halogen sealed beams I saw won't get enough light at their back to make the monitors work. Instead of having a glass pin where (I think) the air is removed from the light at the factory (the light source for the monitors), there is a dark grey stuff that doesn't let enough light pass through it. I have only seen two used rectangular headlights with the glass pin, all the new ones had the dark grey thing.
