none ---------- Post added at 01:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:47 PM ---------- port your stock intake also do a dual plane mod add a carb spacer
Well as much as Mike Tomaszewski talks up the TA Stage 1 350 intake, it gives 15-35 hp over stock depending on combination, improves gas mileage, improves torque and power from 0-6500 rpm (based on combination), and reduces engine weight by 40 lbs. So he's full of scheie then? wow. I wonder why he would go through all that trouble just to make a buck? It isn't like he's not making money on the rest of those aluminum parts. Besides, that's the FIRST part he created that made him start TAPerformance to begin with, why would his business be based on a bogus part that didn't perform? I see much conflicting information on these forums, and requires a lot of gleaning to filter out what's BS and what is useful info. From 'this intake is garbage' to 'you don't really need headers' to 'port it out to the max and put them heads on a stocker and you'll gain low end torque' to etc etc etc. With this information, I can basically build a stock engine using ported iron from the intake to the pipes and blow away anything with aluminum and headers. Cool! So :eek2:ou: pretty much sums it up? lol
it says right there with the right combo. its dual plane is the only gain i can see. you can mod a 4bb the same and it wont cost 300 bucks.
You catch on fast:laugh: I find it funny that T/A spent years ruining Postons reputation because the S-divider under performed... The whole time the T/A ST-1 was no better:bla: Smoke screen anyone?:idea2:
his deal says he is from oklahoma not cali. and as far as headers go. on a street car i would stick with manifolds and have them ported. headers leak.. what machine shop do you use.
He just changed his location :Smarty: Well being in Oklahoma sure makes things easier smog wise. From what I remember Cali doesn't care how old your car is, it must have every form of emission device that it had from the factory
Sure that makes sense, but according to Mike, the nominal gain will be 15 hp over stock. --if everything is left alone and not ported, I suppose. But what I see here is 'no'. No gains at all. zip zero, zilch, nada. Doesn't add up. If you look at the TA intake compared to a stock intake, it sits up considerably higher, which increases runner length and plenum volume. The intake is supposed to increase air flow over stock intakes by 5% at .300 and .2.3% at .600, so o No: I would think porting both would result in the TA intake being better, if not for anything but runner design and cooler air charge. But if it's peanuts compared to stock, you're right, why bother paying (in fact) $359.95 more than you have to, unless engine weight is a major issue? Seems odd to me though that he'd talk it up like that and it not be any improvement at all. Makes you question the rest of the descriptions on parts in his catalog, if that's true! uzzled: However, I suspect there's more here than meets the eye. No one has CONFIRMED it does or does not, which means no one has tested it? Might want to get some actual facts in before any assertions are made.
im going off sean who is the 350 guru. he says there little to no gain. carb spacer with the ported stock would be equal i think.
Very nice conservative setup. 1-5/8 headers would be a very good upgrade. I wouldn't waste money on the intake but would have the heads port matched to the intake, the heat cross over blocked and a mild port work done. I would definitely start with a set of headers and then go from there. Good Luck.
It's cool. I'm just looking for information because I plan on building a 350 as soon as I can, and I was even considering using the stock intake and port matching it to the heads to save some bucks. I am just a little disappointed to hear that the TA Stage 1 intake is only worth its weight in aluminum, and that someone can get away with claiming performance gains that do not exist. I wouldn't think that to be the case, and I'm willing to give anyone and everyone the benefit of the doubt until solid info can be introduced. I'm sure Mike tested his own intake and got those results? Surely he didn't just pull them out of thin air. I used to own a '68 LeSabre with a 350v4 and it ran great and had plenty of power. An upgrade on that existing combo would be ideal to me: port matches and head work with ported exhaust manifolds and a torque oriented cam with a smooth idle. Sounds and looks stock, but SURPRISE! I also have several combinations in mind, that being one of them. Another would be the TA intake, lumpier cam, and ported exhaust manifolds, or shorty headers if those in fact aren't a waste of time and money as well. ---------- Post added at 02:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:19 PM ---------- I agree. What about this: port match intake to heads, bowl work to smooth out guides, bigger valves (TA stage 1 valves), and a super smooth polish job on the exhaust runners, port match those to the exhaust manifolds, polish those as far in as you can go, then open up the exit port to a safe diameter, (2 1/4" to 2 1/2" ?) and polish that. Match lift of cam to approximate air flow @ lift on heads (based on research) and duration and center line based on power band you want to fit the usage of engine: weight of car, transmission/converter type, gear ratio, etc. Goal (in my mind) would be as close to or more than 300-325 hp and 400-425 tq. Sound reasonable?
I have to say I agree with you in some respects. Most of the engine builds on these forums are stock or close to stock. Most performance builds aren't very well documented or do not have numbers to back up what the combinations suggest. One of the few Buick 350 builds documented on the site is the one by Trishield Performance which used the TA Performance intake and made 349hp and 399lb ft. of TQ. Many people who build Buick 350s do much more to make 350hp and Jim did so using a very streetable cam and mild compression. So in a case like that I doubt the TA intake is a restriction, it may just be that gains will only show themselves when the engine is built as a combination. There is very little out there that is optimal the moment you bolt it on. Things have to be built in support of each other and tweaked to get the most out of their potential. On a stock engine with no supporting mods the decrease in power that may be seen may simply be variables in testing.
i use mike henson for my machine work. there is also a guy up there named john andrade. he builds motors. he uses mike henson for machine work.
Right on, now that's what I'm talking about. I've seen Jim's buildup and remember the specs. It was stage 1 valves and springs with mild head work and the TA 212 cam degree'ed at 3* advance, 750 moded Q-jet, and the 1 3/4" primary headers (I always thought he should have used the 1 5/8" and degreed the cam at 4* advance, but maybe I'm wrong), with 9.4 static comp. and the TA intake. torque had a nice broad band which peaked at 4100 rpm and hp at 5200. This is from memory, might be some things I left out. The 350 seems to peak tq at a higher rpm than the big blocks, which is why I was thinking of a tweak on a similar build to the one that Jim did, to lower the rpm of the torque. Maybe stock valves, smaller headers, and more advance on the cam? Getting back to the point, if one were to use that example and swap out the TA intake for a stock one, both combinations tweaked to optimum, and THEN measure the difference in power. On bone stock combinations, I don't see the TA intake doing much at all, or possibly even hurting low end power, but on moderate-radical builds, would show a much better investment value. Hey guys thanks for all the input!
Over the years plenty of people of done back to back testing with the TA vs stock intake and I have never heard of any gains at the track or dyno.. Testing here: http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?54585-T-A-Intake-vs-stock-iron-intake-results!
Thanks Sean, you the man. Edit: well after reading solid results, I know what to believe now. It's documented by side-by-side comparison that on a moderate build the TA intake is a waste of money. Shame on you Mike! I guess he figured the 40 lbs. reduction weight was worth another 10-30 hp? Looks like I'll be taking more of what I read with a grain of salt. Interesting how the open spacer crippled the torque output. Probably because with the larger plenum and longer runners of the TA manifold, it wasn't mixing well enough without those 4 hole spacers. Heh. I guess those Buick engineers knew what they were doing afterall when they made that cast iron intake. Who'd have thought. lol Thanks for all the input and info! /salute
Hmm. well not to pat myself on the back or anything, but I have pretty much answered my own questions regarding the intakes (for myself anyway) I just wanted to see clarification, because some things weren't making sense. That last link Sean provided really helped clarify some things in my mind. Basically the TA intake isn't really much of an improvement unless you open everything up to match the intake. So the more radical you go, the more the TA intake is arguably worth the purchase. Most people won't see much gain from it, however. To some, the weight savings alone is worth the purchase. The quote you give brings up an interesting alternative, also. Increasing volume on the flow and having other parts to match will certainly provide improvement over stock when rpms go higher, as is seen in head porting...however...I've seen some details on that 1021 hp pro charged 350 that used a hogged out stock intake with a 5" spacer, which pulled to 7500 rpm... I know you see a lot of redundancy here, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I learned early on that you can't just log on to this website and type in something in the search and get your question answered right away. There's just too many variables and so many people who have experiences, opinions, etc. which is why it's good to see solid results from a dyno, but even those can be misleading if not compared properly or fairly. So continues the quest for the perfect answer, when it's really inside your mind all the time and all you needed was just some visual aid. I'm speaking for myself of course, as I cannot speak for anyone else.:beer All one really needs is a mechanically inclined mind and some experience along with a good head for physics and engineering. Like with science, if you think you have the answers, even to the point of writing up something about it, only to discover new information that alters or even nullifies your previous research, you can't be afraid to toss it over your shoulder and start anew. No shame in learning new things, no matter how old or smart or educated or experienced you are!
I just talked with the Guys over at TA and here's the skinny. The 350 intake will provide 0 gains until head porting is done. And if we all call over they will create back orders for out aluminium 350 heads! To help motivate Mike!
Depo$it required? How much? Might as well go for it guys, likely as not your best chance. My guess, 5 years out you'll get your heads if enough of you pony up for it. Bottom line is, everything has to work together. Near stock, OEM parts are good. As output increases, things that enhance flow begin to help. Why port the heads on a motor that is never going above 5000 rpm? A waste. We put TA-SE heads and Poston intake on a stock 455 short block with a mildly hot cam, somewhat restrictive exhaust and got predictable results. Torque wasn't bad but hp was only about 275. Why? Donated parts, weight restrictions and budget restrictions. The heads added nothing. The intake added nothing. The cam... almost undoubtedly hurt us. But we met our weight goals and the result in a 2500 lb car is very nice. A few guys want to swap the cam, a good idea. Something stock or mild should really improve the build. High compression pistons and a free flowing exhaust with the existing cam would bump up the power considerably but that would not really improve the car. You have to think about what your target is. Jim
