Hi all. I have a 61 invicta with a 401. Anyone know of the proper operating temp for these? Thanks! H.T.:beer
in hot weather they can go up to 210 to 220 with air on. i believe the idiot light comes on at 240. jim i could be wrong, but doc will know.
''Back in the day'' when your car was new, the standard proceedure was to change the thermostat twice a year, in the spring and in the fall..... you ran a 165 deg. in spring and summer and when cold weather came on you ran a 180 deg..... that was the position that all the factories took.... :idea2: down south where I lived folks would figure out what size piece of card board would make the engine warm up enough to make the heater work and just slip it in front of the rad...and leave the summer stat in there year around....:idea2: In Houston ,Texas there is a lot of times in the spring and fall when you will use the heater going to work and the a/c coming home....:laugh: 180 deg. was ''fully warmed up''.... 200 d. was ''running a little warm''.... not normal... 210 d. was '' hot'' and at 220 d. ..you got out and got under the hood to see what was wrong.... at 220 d. you shut it off...
Something's wrong then. She will go way, WAY up with the thermostat in. I took the thermostat out last night, and it was running fine today, but on the way home I caught too many lights, and it went up to about 215 to 220 again. This is the coolest it has ran, but I knew it was still hot. The book says temps running between 170 and 240 are within the parameter, but the "dummy light" comes on at 245. I am just worried, and think she could run cooler. I love this car, and want to have it for a while. Do you have any ideas on how to cool it further? I have already re-cored the rad, and put on a new water pump and 6 bladed fan, on top of removing the thermostat. I really appreciate it. I don't want to get this block rebuilt, but if I gotta..... H. T.
Not running a thermostat at all is really hard on the engine due to excessive warmup time. Even a 160° is too cool in my book. Have you tried "burping" the system in case you have an air pocket in there? I also suggest trying another temp gage to make sure you're seeing "real" readings. Devon
I tried the meat thermometer, and the gauge is right on. I have flushed the system too, and weeded out any air that may have been in there, although I do not believe there is any. As far as excessive warm up time.....that seems to be the least of my problems. (ha ha!!!) The car sat for 23 years in a garage before I got it. As far as I knew they drove it up till around they tim they both passed, and it was well taken care of. Thanks for help from everyone so far, I really need and appreciate it!
I had my motor rebuilt and radiator recored about 10 years ago, and my 401 always runs right about 210-215*. Doesn't matter if it's 100* or 60* out, it's always right around 212*. And Doc, I think your numbers are a bit unrealistic. 180-210* is perfectly normal in my book, 220* is a little warm, and anything over 230* is too hot. My car has never run that cool in the 15+ years I've owned it, and probably won't until I finally put an aluminum radiator in it. Hard Top, if your running 215-220* I wouldn't be concearned. That's how my car has ran for years.
This might be an old "wives tale"..... but I've always heard that you can't run without a thermostat. Supposedly the coolant runs through your radiator so fast that it's not in there long enough to cool down any. So the result is that you'll overheat. I've always heard if you don't want to run a thermostat, you either find a washer that will fit in the thermostats spot, or take an old thermostat and cut the center section out. Either way, you need to slow down the coolant flow. Anyone else ever here that? If it's true... maybe your old thermostat was bad, and running without one is just as bad? o No:
If the cooling system is in good shape overall, yes it's possible to move the coolant so quickly it's not able to "pick up" heat appropriately. In H.T.'s case though, it's likely there's some other form of restriction in the system. The bad news is in regards to engine wear when below operating temp. Some interesting reading here: http://www.carnut.com/ramblin/cool3.html Also, I've never been a proponent of restrictors in place of thermostats. A good high flow balanced t-stat does more than a restrictor can do in all cases. There's just no reason to endure long warmup times. Devon
Nope, cant buy that a nail runs hotter than other engines.....:laugh: Start looking for the source of the heat.... put the sniffer on the system and see if there is combustion gas in the coolant.... you say that you had the rad recored... 3rows of tubes or 4????? you need, need, need , 4 rows of tubes.... that is what it took on every nail that I have had.... then it will run cool, if everything else is normal.... Other wise start looking for a cracked block, head , or popped headgasket...... p Cameo, I understand what you are saying....but, back then, cars were not run nearly as hot as today....the factorys started putting the hotter thermostats in to make the epa happy , not because they wanted to....oil reaches its best lubricy right at 180 deg. and that is where the factories wanted to stay but had to go hotter to meet govt regs....:Brow:
This is all great stuff guys, and I really appreciate it. I am gonna flush the system one more good time, and see what happens. I have never been part of one of these forums before, and it is really great. If anyone needs anything, feel free to ask. Thanks!......p.s. if anyone wants to sell an old nailhead let me know!
Before blaming the cooling system, there are other things to check. Look at the distributor and make sure the weights move freely and are not stuck. This will result in a lack of advance as the engine rpm increase which can cause it to run hot. Clean and lubricate them with a light grease (Don't over do it), distributor cam lube is the best if you can find it. Make sure your intial timing is set correctly too. The biggest culprit can be the vacuum advance unit. If this has gone bad, the timing will be affected even more. Check to make sure that as vacuum is applied to it the timing advances. On older engines (pre 68) the vacuum advance should be connected to a full vacuum source at idle. To set initial timing, this MUST be disconnected first before the timing is set. Setting initial timing with it on will cause a problem. Make sure the idle is not too high as the mechanical advance will raise the timing and give a wrong reading. To repeat, 1) make sure the advance weights move freely, 2) check the vacuum advance, if bad replace it with the correct one and 3) set intial timing with the vacuum line disconnected and plugged at the proper idle speed. Doing this will eliminate the distributor as a source of the over heating. I know this can be basic info, but worth checking. After this, check the carburetor for vacuum leaks or other possible causes of a lean running condition. Running to lean can cause heating problems as well. With the amount of ethanol in todays fuel, it tends to lean the carb out. Going a bit richer on the jets (my opinion) can help reduce some of the heating. The point of all this is to look at other causes. If you have done all you can to the cooling system, it is worth looking at other things such as the suggestions in the previous posts. Good Luck, Mark
That's not exactly true for the Nailhead. From the factory my '63 401 NH has the vacuum advance connected to ported vacuum and initial timing is 12* BTDC (because it has Dynaflow; manual trans is 5*). It would not surprise me if his '61 might also use ported vacuum. In '64 Buick went to using full manifold vacuum on the NH (and reduced initial timing to 2.5* with auto trans) except on the 425 with dual 4-bbl and auto trans, which was setup like the '63 (ported vacuum and 12*). You really need to go by what it says in the factory shop manual for your year and not assume that other years are the same, even though it is the same basic engine. It is easy to check the coolant in the radiator for combustion gases. Get a "block tester" from a good auto parts store. Cars that have been left for years with coolant in them often have bad head gaskets, which makes them run hot. I have seen it several times now. Fix it now and it is a fairly simple repair. Keep overheating the engine and you will be dealing with bigger problems. Jim
Good point, I should correct my statement to say "most". Always check the chassis manual to make sure the hoses are placed correctly and the intial timing is set accordingly. Mark
how hot is your nail running hardtop? hey doc my nail will run below 190 in town. at 2400rpm it will go to 210, when i back it down to 2000 or 2100rpm the temp drops again. is this because of the vacuum advance or is the pump pushing the water too fast to keep it cooler. thanks jim
Jim, if a car, any car, will stay cool at lower rpm, and then the temp rises as the r's go up it is usually because of insufficent coolant flow at higher rpm, not going too fast. Just because the r's go up doesnt mean that the coolant is moving too..... a water pump on a car doesnt ''pump'' water it just moves the water in a certain direction kind of like when you stick your hand in the bath tub and swirl it around.... now a power steering pump actually ''pumps'' and pressures can go incredibly high... not so with the water pump.... soooo, if the rad needs rodding out or is of an insufficent size to start with there is poor circulation at high speed and even though there is more air coming thru the rad the engine temp still goes up... now,,,, what is the history of the car????? if a bigger engine is swapped in it will need a bigger rad...period. If the rad is the same and the engine is just modified and not swapped to a bigger one, maby it will work , if it is good and clean.... but keep in mind that for many years now, the factories have used the smallest rad that they could get by with because it cuts costs...:rant: ...straight ,stock, cooling systems are marginal at the very best....:rant: That is an ''ol Doc'' saying that you can write on the wall... because it is true... better to have too much rad and let the engine run right on the thermostat....:idea2: if I pull a rad on a car that I have just purchased or am working on ... at the very least , it gets rodded out or get a 3 or 4 tube rad.... even a 4 tube , if it is stopped up will run hot.... so make sure that the rad is clean inside and outside... not stopped up with bugs and leaves ect....:Brow: And Guys , listen to me, If a woman is going to drive the car at all, make sure that it has a heavy duty rad that is clean and in good order.... because if it starts running hot , she is not about to stop, she is going to drive it home or to where there are lights and people around... I have had 2 good engines burned to a crisp because they were driven after they got hot by women....so it is best to prepare for that to start with....have a cooling system that is so heavy duty that if the temp rises above the thermostat at all, you know that there is something that needs looking at.....:laugh: :laugh:
