Going back to carb from efi..

Discussion in 'Street/strip 400/430/455' started by ArcticRyan, Jan 26, 2024.

  1. ArcticRyan

    ArcticRyan Well-Known Member

    Its about a foot from the tank and below the tank. I’m pretty much a stock motor so I’m leaning toward just going back in with mechanical pump. I’ll get rid of the electric pump and hopefully sell it with the sniper efi as a package..
     
  2. ArcticRyan

    ArcticRyan Well-Known Member

    And yes i have a fuel gauge showing my pressure to the sniper efi.. its always at 58 psi as the manual states it should be at..
     
  3. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    OK, good, thanks for clarifying that.
     
  4. nekkidhillbilly

    nekkidhillbilly jeffreyrigged youtube channel owner

    i got 400 in a version 1 sniper so i couldnt pass on that. I plan to use that shielding over my wires that blocks rf. Im also going to run my own regulator vs there built in one and build my own fuel system. In tank pump setup.
     
  5. ArcticRyan

    ArcticRyan Well-Known Member

    I was running an external regulator at the firewall. I have be quadrajet sniper which does not have built in regulator. Out of the box my injection ports did not work correctly! Only injected on front two ports. Its suppose to inject “ pulse” all four injectors then rear ones close at 2% throttle and re open around 60% throttle depending on how you have your secondary linkage set up.. any who.. best of luck! I hope it works for ya!
     
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  6. Schurkey

    Schurkey Silver Level contributor

    You're going to be really disappointed, I think.

    1. I don't know about aftermarket injection, but OEM injection is controlled by the O2 sensor to run mixture strength at or near "stoichiometric", approximately 14.7-ish to one at cruise depending on fuel composition. A carb can be tuned to run significantly leaner at cruise, for better fuel economy (but worse emissions, particularly NOx.) Some OEM injection can have "Highway Lean Cruise" illegally enabled in the software--GM did that for export vehicles sold in markets with less-stringent NOx regulations.

    2. Fuel injection is not "easier starting" than a quality carburetor with a functional and properly-adjusted choke, and a float bowl full of gasoline. For the record, I've never seen an aftermarket Holley, or a Holley add-on automatic choke, that was adjusted correctly from the factory. In fact, the ENTIRE adjustment procedure is not even included in the instructions packaged with the automatic choke kits. An electric fuel pump solves the "empty float bowl" starting issue. Choke problems are easily resolved assuming the carb HAS a choke that can be adjusted.

    https://www.chevelles.com/threads/adjusting-automatic-chokes-a-semi-universal-approach.1131913/

    Note that the huge number of word-spacing problems were installed AFTER I provided text and photos, during a software "down-" grade I had no control over.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2024
  7. nekkidhillbilly

    nekkidhillbilly jeffreyrigged youtube channel owner

    By easy start i mean cold start. I wanted to be able to jump and go any time. Most tbi swaps have seen around a 2 mpg increase so idk. It also allows me to run a tv cable for my od trans much cheaper and easier along with a few other things like e fans and such.
     
  8. Mark Demko

    Mark Demko Well-Known Member

    Probably because the carb it replaced wasn’t tuned properly.
    With TBI, the fuel follows the same path as the fuel being pulled from the carburetor.
    That’s what’s nice about a carburetor, it responds instantly to what the engine wants.
    TBI or even port injection the sensors send signals a computer to figure out what the engine needs, and those parameters are written in the program, yes you can change it, but a carburetor does it on its own.
     
    Schurkey likes this.
  9. Schurkey

    Schurkey Silver Level contributor

    A well-tuned carburetor, winter-blend fuel, a fully-charged battery, appropriate engine oil viscosity, an operator who knows how to tickle or pump the gas pedal, AND A FULL FLOAT BOWL will start AT LEAST as good as fuel injection at any temperature down to about Minus 20 F. Potentially down to Minus 40, although below Minus 20, things get dicey whether carb'd or injected. The carb'd engine may emit more emissions than the injected engine, and the fast-idle speed might be higher. Both engines will run SEAMLESSLY during startup, warm-up, and fully-warm.

    Read the article I linked-to previously.

    As said previously, if a carb can't do better than USA-tuned feedback fuel injection at cruise, there's something wrong with the carb. "The magazines" have, for example, done Holley carbs a grave injustice when the Dyno-Testers put richer jets in the Holley to correct WFO fueling instead of doing it the right way--by opening-up the power valve channel restrictions. Holley main jets are for cruise, not for power enrichment. "Jetting-up" for power KILLS cruise fuel economy.

    How does a carb not allow you to run a TV cable, especially if you're smart enough to use a Q-Jet already set up for a TV cable?
     
  10. TrunkMonkey

    TrunkMonkey Totally bananas

    Only my real world, narrow experience and not an endorsement, nor a dissenting opinion against those who have stated cases for carbs.

    I have both a nailhead with 2x4 and a 430 (Stage 2 SE) with all the roller goodies.
    First I had the OEM 2x4 with correct carbs for the nailhead and drove it a few good distance runs (155 highway miles each way and then another 190 local miles Crusin' the Coast)

    With the OEM stuff, a T-1o with Gear Vendors OD and 3.55 on 26.5 tires, I was getting about 13 MPG highway and I won't try to justify non-highway miles, being I had my foot in it every chance I could.
    I drive between 80-90 on the highway, because I got places to go.

    After the T-10 "broke" 3rd cluster, and it would take 3 months for a Richmond, and no idea for parts to repair the T-10, I bought the TXO-500.
    That changes my OD from a .78 with the Gear Vendors to a .68 with the Tremec. The change netted about 12 MPH at the same RPM (2800)

    At the same time I changed the transmission, I put on the Eelco EB24 and 2x4 FiTech, and went to Crusin' the Coast that next year, and got 21 MPG on the highway, and still lousy gas mileage romping and stomping and having the fun one would imagine in a week long Cruising event.


    Then I decided to try the single FiTech on the new build I did on the '68. Stage 2 SE heads, headers, roller rockers, roller cam, zero deck, 10.1 and big head HEI, Tremec TKX with .72 OD and 3.42 gears, it is about 2% difference from the '64. So, it also gets 20-22 Highway miles. Driving to and from Bowling Green last year. (1030 round trip and having fun blasting around BG and the freeway)

    Now, the "my experience", my first career was USAF Aircraft Maintenance (Crew Chief and Aircrew Member) I did A&P, then retired and tried my hand at building homes, and decided I really did not want to do that after 3 years, and went into computer networking, Novell, 'NIX, Windows and realized the "Windows" world was going to take over, so I put all my effort into that (plus programming Basic/VB/C and Windows Scripting). (And I am anal/OCD in working on things. It's a family trait)

    All of that made digging into and understanding the tuning of the FiTech, that I really did not have all the troubles many other folks have.

    I realize these "kits" are "one size fits all" and that is typically not the best fit for every car. And some of the issues with "noise" as well as those not able to sort out the variables in tuning these things can frustrate people to the point they bail, and I completely understand anyone doing that. That they are "touted" as being "Plug and Play" when that gives marginal service, is simply irresponsible of the vendors.

    But if the vendors make the point that folks either need to have more than basic skills and understanding of tuning, or one need find a reputable/knowledgeable tuner, they are going to lose sales.

    I have been able to help a few people though some issues, and others were just tired of the hassles.

    I have 225,000 miles on my truck with factory FI, and have never had to do anything the FI in 14 years of service. I never had anywhere near that many miles/years service in all the carbureted cars and motorcycles combined. So, while they can give near equal service, I do believe that in some cases, FI can provide some benefits.

    But, if I had some of the issues others have experienced, I would have no trouble tossing something in the dumpster, I could not get to work.

    Hope that helps someone. :)
     
  11. nekkidhillbilly

    nekkidhillbilly jeffreyrigged youtube channel owner

    I've never had carb engine that didn't need to warm up so idk. Start yes but I couldn't just take off without thinking like i can in the efi vehicles ive owned. I'm just saying what kind of gains I've seen most people gain I have no first hand experience. I'm aware I can run a TV cable on my quad but I also need a everyday performance, and arm off a 80s vehicle, or build my own. I can use a cheap Parr for the sniper as it uses a holley arm. It also adds fan control and gauges as well. So in the long run it gives me a few advantages. Not saying it will work out but I at least want to give it a shot.
     
  12. nekkidhillbilly

    nekkidhillbilly jeffreyrigged youtube channel owner


    I'm doing a overdrive trans on my cars. Basically want a cruise car. Not after anything more than something I can daily if I feel like it.
     
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  13. Schurkey

    Schurkey Silver Level contributor

    You've never had a carb with a properly-working choke. Don't feel bad...it's common.

    Twenty below zero, the only reason to warm-up a vehicle before driving away is human comfort, not vehicle driveability. Start up, engine stabilizes after a few seconds. Kick-down to 2nd step of fast idle cam, drop it in gear and cautiously drive away like any other cold engine.
     
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  14. TrunkMonkey

    TrunkMonkey Totally bananas

    I have done two cars, first was the nailhead I spoke of.
    Second was the '68. I tried a TH400 Switch Pitch (having had several Buicks with them) but found with a big block and extra ponies, I just could not "get connected" with it.

    I came from manual driven cars for most of my life, after riding motorcycles for many years prior, and "shifting" just feels natural to me. Autos are fin for daily driving, but in anything "sporty" and more, I prefer and feel "one with the vehicle" if it has more pedals than I got feets... (Maybe it's a monkey thing).

    After spending a lot of money trying to keep the first car "period specific" and the second car "let's try a badass automatic" and breaking things with the first car, and being disappointed with the "me and the TH400" in the second car, I look back and realized, my first instinct to go with the 5 speeds in each car, would have saved me a good bit of money, time, effort, frustration and what not.

    For a mostly "drag strip" car, and auto makes sense, but most of my driving is on the street, and is what I have been doing for over 50 years, so that's my POV.

    If someone is looking for "OD" and is not stuck on staying "as stock as can be", the cost of a Tremec conversion, vs Gear Vendors is almost the same in the end.
    But there is a good bit of work involved.

    Unless and auto is a must, 480LE or other models.

    If anyone wants specifics on 64-69 I have done several conversions of various OEM small block/auto, to other drivetrains, including big block, bigger auto transmissions, and various manual, Gear vendors and the Tremecs.

    I have confidence in jumping in both of my cars and heading anywhere.
     
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  15. 1973gs

    1973gs Well-Known Member

    I grew up with standard carburetors and when I started working as a mechanic, they were computer controlled. I have no issues working on carbs or fuel injection, but I prefer fuel injection. I can change settings from the supplied hand held that came with my Fast EzEFI. The only issues that I had were the junk sensors that they used. Luckily, it uses GM style sensors so they are readily available. That being said, these aftermarket EFI systems are not just plug and play. You still need to understand how fuel injection works and you have to know what your engine needs. Also, you can't just install it on a 60 year old electrical system. If you do, it probably will have issues. I also don't like the systems that install the ECU on the throttle body. Why would they install a computer on the top of a hot engine? With the ECU mounted on the throttle body with all of the sensors installed with no harness or connectors, how can you ever diagnose it if there is a problem? If a car isn't running right with a carburetor or EFI, changing systems probably won't fix your problem. Just my two cents.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2024
    TrunkMonkey, Mark Demko and FLGS400 like this.
  16. nekkidhillbilly

    nekkidhillbilly jeffreyrigged youtube channel owner

    Probably not but then to convert to electric choke is another hundred. I don't have the heat riser and stock air cleaner. So there is that as well. I'm keeping my carb on the shelf though so if I can't make it work.
     

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