I am in the process of slowly restoring my 60 Electra (401 nailhead w Carter AFB). Let me tell you whats wrong first and then work back: My generator/regulator do not charge anymore (idiot light on, no voltage change when I start the car). History: I have restored many engine peripherals: carb, power steering pump, water pump, generator etc... (see pic).... and have gotten the car back on the road two weeks ago. It ran fine (for its first day back on the road). Charge idiot light would go out after i stepped on gas etc... until I turned off the engine at a long stop light - to save on fuel mind you (and save the planet etc...:Brow. When I tried to start again. Nothing happened. I turned off the ignition key and suddenly the alt light came on and would go off only when I turned the key as if to start (no starter action though) and it stayed on when I took the key out !! o No: I quickly rushed out to open the hood and smoke was coming out of the generator and it was burning hot (voltage regulator too -> engine heat or electrical pb ?). I pulled off the positive lead from the battery and sat there for 15 minutes trying to figure out what went wrong o No: I decided to turn the generator by hand a bit (assume something with the contacts on the armature was weird to burn/produce smoke). Then I put the battery cable back on and tried to start the car. It started !!!! But the alternator light now stays on at all times. I put a voltmeter at the battery and I get no change when I start the car or even rev it up. 12.4V (NO CHARGE ). Once home I took off the generator and the voltage regulator and dismantled them on my kitchen table. All seems ok (I was amazed at how long the generator takes too cool off !). I tested the gen for grounding on the armature and grounding of different wires (field etc..). Seems good (not sure I am doing the right tests but oh well trying to learn !). I opened up the voltage regulator... seems healthy looking (ok I know that is a stupid comment.... but its really the best i could do). I am really not too sure what to test anymore to find out what is the problem: Voltage regulator ? Generator ? On thing I need to mention is I forgot to polarize the generator when I put it back after the rebuild (is that a big problem ?)...But the alternator light went off when reving after my rebuild....so I assume it was charging. I probably fried something but what ? and how do I test it ? I have since then put the generator/V.regulator back in and there is no change (ie: no charge, 12.4V + idiot light on at all times). I tried to polarize the gen (better late than never!) - engine off / took a thick wire and bridged the ARM and BAT terminal twice in a row getting a huge spark / burnt the end of the thick gauge wire almost welding it to the post (hum... does not seem good). I'm lost now !! Any recommendation would be greatly appreciated... I surely need HELP !!!! Food for thought: What happens if you forget to polarize a generator ? Could it work for a while and suddenly (after 3 hour ride with maybe 8-10 shut down/start-ups) start frying something ? Clueless Roland
I just looked at the BAT terminal relay and noticed the metal around the relay is discolored (over heated?). I tried to close the relay by hand (could not get the gap to close) and noticed it probably arc'ed because this is what it looks like (pic) closed !!! Should I try to file that arc/peak down ?
Anyone have any experience in testing charging system ? Any clue on telling what is wrong or non functional ? (besides replacing everything - which I cannot afford anyway !)
Your generator looks fried from the interior view you posted. Also the Regulator looks burned. To see if the generator might have survived this episode reassemble it and connect a wire from the negative battery terminal to the casing and jump the "batt" and "field " posts together with another wire and touch it to the positive battery terminal. If it is still good it will run like a motor. If it does not it is history. If you could turn the generator by hand when you had the problem like you described you had the fan belt too loose and it would not have been charging properly in the first place which would account for the idiot light being on. Polarizing the generator/regulator impresses current to flow through the generator windings to build up residual magnetism in the winding pole pieces to assure that there is some magnetic field to allow charging to begin, and matches polarity between the generator and regulator windings. If there is no magnetic field when the generator starts turning it can't begin to build up a charging voltage/currrent. If the regulator was faulty, as the picture implies, and the contacts welded shut or jammed trying to charge the battery when you shut down the engine at the light it would have been trying to run the generator as a motor. That would be a high current draw which would have caused the generator to burn out. I know it is a long post and apologize for that. but I want to give you as much information as possible to sort out your problem.
If you have the wiring installed correctly and the voltage acrosss the generator terminals is 12.4, my suspicion is the generator. Take it to a local shop for a test and rebuild.
Thanks for the answers !! First comment: The generator picture (innards) is an old picture from before I cleaned it up, put new brushes etc... I forgot to take a picture once I had finished it ! I will try your => "connect a wire from the negative battery terminal to the casing and jump the "batt" and "field " posts together with another wire and touch it to the positive battery terminal. If it is still good it will run like a motor. If it does not it is history." I assume I should take the belt off the generator to let it spin freely ? As for my turning the generator a bit... I turned it an inch or so and it too a lot of hand pressure.... The belt was tight ... or should I say: How tight should the belt be ? I understand the polarization principle. But should polarizing it (bridge BAT and ARM) make such a spark/weld mark on the contacts ? Thanks for your last suggestion on what could of gone wrong. It really sounds like it. It happened when the engine was cut off. So maybe the generator was trying to spin and started burning ! Now the question is why would of the regulator welded shut ?
Hi- Yes, the belt must be loosened to let it spin. The belt should be tight enough under running conditions that the generator can not turn by hand in order to be tight enough to function properly. The belt should depress about 1/2" when pushed in between the pulleys. Polarizing will not cause severe burning when done unless something else is wrong or the process is held too long.
Looking at the pictures of the regulator and the current coils it appears the armature, the movable portion on top, is too close to the coil pole piece to allow it to work properly. Is there clearance between the coil pole and the armature? If not, or there is too little the coil might have pulled it in and not been able to release it causing it to stick and fry the generator or regulator.
Do you mean the picture in post #2 ? I f so I have my finger on the armature and am trying to close it but it cant because there is some molten metal there from arching I assume. I'll try to file it down and make sure there is a large gap.... Butif I change the gap will that change the setting of the regulator ?
I meant the picture where you show the arc marks from polarizing the generator/regulator. If you file the points to clean them they should be re-gapped. A 1960 shop manual will give you the correct point gaps for the relays. The gap is what determines the amount of voltage and current the generator puts out and larger gaps require higher currents and voltages to close/open them.
Thanks.. I just pulled the regulator out to look at it again and decided to touch the copper lead going to the shunt coil (small thin coil inside the thick coil) on the current side/coil (see pic) ... well it just fell into pieces .... It is burnt/broken .... so I assume the regulator will not work ! No need to try to repair i'll buy a new one at Rockauto (they are 24$ ...seems awfully low !! Should I assume the quality is good?).
You can get them likely at NAPA etc. They are now all regulated by transistors rather than by coils and points. If you want to maintain the original look transplant the original Delco cover to the new unit.
I'm in France but I'll look online (i usually have it shipped to a friend travelling through the US on his way home).... So they look different ? Do they work better ? On the NAPA site its hard to tell what can work for a 60 Buick w generator !! Got a NAPA # ? ECH VR128 ? MPE VR122SB ? These all look like coil/points though..
Step 1: Throw Generator and Regulator in the Dumspter.:idea2: Step 2: Install 10SI Interally Regulated Alternator Never have charging system trouble again!:Brow:
From what I have read there are a lot of problems with aftermarket regulators, so it is a crap shoot. If you are looking to keep the car stock you will have to try to get a good one. If it is reliability you are after go with the alternator conversion. Good luck
I had those problems with my 60s cars. Got a 63 alternator bracket, rewired (mostly throwing things away) for an internal reg alt, and never looked back. Bruce Roe
Thanks guys... I know the reliable solution would be to go with an alternator.... but i'd like to keep it stock for now so i'll try the aftermarket regulator and the day i'm totally stranded in the country side pulling my hair out (but wait a minute ! i've already lost my hair !!!) and finally have enough, i'll switch to an alternator
Better start shopping for alternators, because it will happen soon or later. I have a boat and I felt the same way as you did. I'll get the generator working, and it will be fine. Wrong. $300 rebuild later the generator works but only for a few months. Next year, it needs another rebuild. Again, only lasts a few months. Switched to an alternator and I now have more juice than ever that works every time.:beers2: Best of luck.:3gears:
The generator system can be just as reliable as the alternator. 35 years ago I've had the same trouble you are having, now. We replaced the regulator and had the generator rewound. We had no further problems. Then, ten years ago, during my second restoration, I replaced the generator as a preventative measure. Again I have had no problems from the charging system, since. I keep the spare generator and a spare regulator, just in case. The arguments for/against generator/alternator are subjective. In addition to my 12 volt generator equipped Roadmaster I've had for 41 years, I had a '52 Chev, '36 Buick that had 6volt generator, never had a problem with those charging systems. Also, I had an alternator equipped '73 Olds for 26 years. I didn't have any more or any less trouble with the generator system than I've had with an alternator system. There is a similar argument for/against 6 volt vs. 12 volt. I've heard recently that new cars may go to 24 volt. I suppose in 30 years there'll be an argument to switch old 12v cars to 24volts....... When an alternator fails, I would'nt suggest changing to a generator. ...just saying...... Tom Gonzalez is giving you very good advice.
If you are doing serious miles, a generator is no where near as "reliable" as an alternator. I used to have a generator failure about Christmas every year, because the brushes would only last 40,000 miles. Yes after a while I kept a spare gen ready to go. My alt will go about 130,000 miles on a set of brushes, because alt slip rings don't wear brushes like a high current commutator. PERHAPS if I had started swapping in new gen brushes after 30,000 miles, the gen would have been a lot more reliable. But I skipped that stage and went for the internally regulated alt. Bruce Roe
