Easy guys.. let's keep it civil, we are all friends here. You guys have been fine so far,(more or less) but this is one of those topics that can degenerate quickly. JW
My Point The point I was trying to make is, it is more than the union's mess here.( Labour is less then 10% of cost of the product) There are many factors involved, #1 being GM not backing up the product they put out the door which I stated earlier in the thread. I have two daily drivers, the newst being a FORD because of 1. I can buy ford cheaper 2. Service was much better. You don't have to tell me about a 2 edged sword , I owned my own business before I was employed at GM. Its about supply and demand .The fault falls squarely on managements shoulders
Not problems here Jim. I just wanted to make sure that my post was clear. Its nice to see people on here are well informed... :Smarty: Even thou I'm in a union, its has been trying at times to understand some of its moves as well as the company's Thank you for letting me speak my mind... :beer
i would rather give my money to a UAW member than to send it to some other country. the risk of possibly buying the occasional lemon is a small price to pay to live in a financially stable country, one capable of quickly building their own military vehicles. i hope people realize this before its too late.
Im going to chip in with my cent here: If GM would spend as much time and money on buicks as they would chevy/cadillac/and pontiac, they might actually sell something. Another problem is the corporated motors you find in some of the buicks/pontiacs. The GM/Chevy Corporate motor ideal isn't working too well. And even though buick designed the s/c'd 3.8 litre motor, the engine compartment doesn't read buick, it says "GM". Wake up GM, the consumer wants pure 100 percentile Thoroughbred power, not corporated crap. And like said above, GM needs to worry about what the consumer wants, not what they(GM) likes. If they like the design of the new lesabre's, they have a love for bland styling. The reason olds died is because they kinda ignored them, while paying full attetion to chevy/GMC/pontiac/cadillac. Same is happening to buick here, while paying full attention to chevy/GMC/pontiac/cadillac, buick is just being ignored and decreasing in sales. Does GM really care about Buick? IMHO, heck no. If they did, buick would have a V8 car or even 2 V8 cars in the performance line, and they would be aimed at selling to younger generations as well. GM, if you want to give your position(best automaker in the world) to an import car, then bear the shame. As far as im concerned, if they don't do something quick, they are going to lose to ford/mopar.
Iceman, You are correct. It's about supply and demand. However, this problem just isn't management's. Both they and the UAW are responsible. The reality is this, the UAW is going to have to concede some things if they want to keep their jobs. UAW or no UAW, the ultimate decision on what will be done next will be made by management. Being a UAW member is no guarentee of employment.
gotta chime in here.... It's really funny for me to see people posting about the "ongoing quality problems" at GM - all the while raving about toyotas and other foreign marks. The truth is, if anyone cares to read the numbers for themselves( and most obviously don't) there is almost no difference between jd power's #1 car and the #20 car. It works out to a couple of defects per car ( foreign or domestic) with a "great" car having maybe 2.1 defects and a "terrible" car having 3. Basically, what we're looking at here is pablum that is perpetuated by some very ignorant US Hating members of the press. The "myth" of poor quality has been trotted out for so long that it has become the truth for those who've never investigated for themselves, and it has poisoned a whole generation of buyers against domestic cars. The Japanese aren't "smarter" than Americans, they don't have a lock on "ingenuity" or "creativity", they don't have a better "work ethic", and if you think our healthcare system is a mess just take a peek at the EU and the taxes those folks pay! Bottom line? Terrible management at GM, nothing more or less. They have a culture of shooting those who speak out against the bad ideas coming from above. Do you really think they asked ANY hourly employees what they thought of the Pontiac Aztec? Yet the hourly employees are the ones who get their paychecks cut whenever GM lays an egg, and it's been laying eggs since its inception. I can't believe what an easy time the press gives GM, allowing it to drape off all of their problems on their "greedy" employees, while giving the senile and ignorant upper management a pass for their bad decisions and behavior. Ever hear of Saturn, Hughs, or EDS? When those "greedy" employees were turning record profits for their corporate masters, GM was busy plowing massive cash into them instead of r&d for their primary business(cars!). What's really pathetic is how GM trys to play the "buy american :rant: " card even though they cut joint ventures with toyota, suzuki, daewoo, etc - and an ever-growing mess of GM cars are Mexican - and in the meantime Mazda, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes, Honda, Hyundai and countless other "foreign" companies are actually *building* cars in the US. :rant:
Sorry to bust this bubble, but those jobs are *gone* asap - no matter what the employees do, GM has made a decision, and is moving SOUTH as fast as possible. Unless GM's employees are up for the Mexican wage and benefit package ( what is it now, $.90 per hour?)
As a service manager of a GM dealer, I can tell you there needs to be some upper management changes at GM soon. My district service manager has become an even tighter wad since GM released their recent billion dollar losses. Instead of trying to look after their existing customers, they are now rejecting more and more repairs that I feel should be covered under warranty. I was almost charged back on a rotted (and I mean rotted) front bumper from a year old GMC pickup. My rep had the guts to say that it is up to the owner to "polish" it after each wash! Junk tires at 25000 miles on a Vibe (which is a Toyota Matrix) and I had to fight tooth and nail to get them covered under warranty for the elderly customer who has owned GM for 40 years. Now I'm getting a "brake audit" this coming Monday as my rep feels we are replacing too many rotors. What are we supposed to do when chunks of rust start falling off the surface? My techs are frustrated as they have to attempt to machine them knowing damn well they won't clean up prior to replacing them (GM policy) BUT GM will not pay them for the attempt to machine if they go undersize! ou: You know what GM models seem to have the best quality? The Korean imports (Aveo, Epica and Optra)! Todd
If the Aztec would have been a "Toyota", the public (and media) would have loved it. It's a "perception" thing. Just look at that Honda Element thing. We need to wake up, and support the US companies here in the USA. If you don't like GM, buy Ford or Chrysler, If you don't like Ford, buy GM or Chrysler, If you don't like Chrysler, buy GM or Ford. If you don't like GM, Ford, or Chrysler, then buy what you want and don't complain about the poor economy and job losses being caused by the Big 3 and their need to do what it takes to compete with low wage, low benefit, non-union foreign companies. As far as the union issue goes, I think there is room for improvement, and a much needed willingness to be part of the solution. When the company goes out of business, where are you going to work to support your families? I guess there will be non-union jobs available at Toyota. If you work for an American company, you should be willing to spend your hard earned money on American automobiles. If you like the foreign products so much, got to work for a non-union foreign company and buy their products.
OK Mark I'm calling you on this one! I don't know how you can back up your last statement! You are only quoting part of my statements and sorry to say but, you are being very bias. No one said being a UAW worker is a guarentee of employment, period!! So where did that come from. If cars don't sell , there has ALWAYS been layoffs, its a part of the job you have to except. You seem to be picking on the union and I'm not sure why? I have been very neutral in my posts except for how the company got into this postion. How do I back myself up...well in 1996 the plant received over 10,000 signatures on a petition ( from a US based performance group) on bringing back rear wheel drive to the Monte Carlo that is made in Oshawa. How do I know, I was there!The talk was on the floor,and in middle management (the guys who ran the place). The Company decided they would stick with the front wheel drive. Not the union! This is one of many poor decisions the company made. In the 80,s it was a joke in plants for quality, bad steel, shitty imported parts etc. In the 90's they made the jobs so tight if you cross threaded a screw , you couldn't fix it on the line because the next car was there , if you did you got behind , then you were put on notice and disaplined. NOW they bring in so many parts from all around the world it would make your head spin and the company has lost control of the quality.Iif a bad part goes on the car from the line the worker takes the heat! Autoworkers make good wages and benefits...but earn every penny of it ! I'm not complaining...I work hard and watch the union struggle with the company on a daily basis. The fact that the company won't repair some of these cars that leave the lot and are sold is unacceptable...just read about Randy Peck to prove my point! :spank:
Todd, I found this when I took my 2003 S-10 in for a top end engine noise. The service manager said that the rocker arm sounded loose and to bring it back when it got worse. When I drive the truck I can hear clear as day. So, after he told that I said I'll just wait 'til the F---in' thing blows and then you can take care of it. I don't even know why I wasted my time going there in the first place. I'll keep the truck another year, then I'll get rid of it. I really hope things can workout for everyone, but I have to agree that the upper management has to correct their mistakes. We all can be voicing our opinions until we're blue in the face and it's not going to solve anything. I don't think GM will ever die, but if they don't do anything soon they will get taken over from some foreign competitor just like Chrysler did.
On the engine thing I was told once it was the fault of GM for charging more money for different engines. People who paid several hundred more for say an Olds motor got a car with a Chevy motor instead. Well bunched of them sued. And then GM had to say that all engines were equal. But then why did getting a different brand cost more if the Chevy version was just as good. Basically some cheesy lawyer wrangled them into that corner. They probably saved millions then to lose billions now. And you know how that goes. They said that the GM corp Chevy engines were just as good or better and then soon it was no longer just BS to skirt being sued. They actually believed it.
Pace Car Seeker, I'm not disagreeing with you about the poor management decisions that have been made by GM execs. Many of them are overpaid folks who have been brought in to "cut costs" wherever possible. They are under pressure to make the stockholders a profit. That's the real job one. Quality, workers and the customer fall behind. And when they accomplish this by procuring cheaper parts, labor and off-shore production they are rewarded (like kings) Many of them then move on and do it somewhere else leaving unemployed people in their wake. Now on the other side, just to let you know that I have been in the GM plants. In my family there is a total of nearly 200 years of employment in areas from production to design. This is what I have seen in the automotive "union" environment. I have seen the end of a production line that had more rejected assembled units then good ones. I have seen a guy actually build a model car for his grandson at his workstation because his work was done for the day. He was obligated to stay at his workstation and couldn't perform any other duties because he wasn't allowed to. I have watched on the news where a guy can get caught selling drugs to undercover cops on the job only to have the union fight the company for wanting to terminate the guy. I have read in the local paper about GM guys that were "laid off" only to be sent to "work" to literally sit at tables all day (for more than 6 months) and read magazines and play cards simply because they had to report. All the while getting paid more than the average Joe while doing it. Does this mean that it's the workers fault? NO! These guys wanted to work!What this means is that there are very expensive systems/policies in place that are BROKEN and that management isn't totally to blame. Again, regardless of how it got this way I still contend (and I'll take the UAW word out here) that the workers are the ones who will be left producing cars in this country at a reduced wage and with reduced benefits in order to keep their jobs. Follow the airline industry? Right or wrong, these people have taken pay cuts, wages freezes, layoffs, lost pensions etc... in order to keep their jobs. The U.S. auto industry will face the same. Think the auto industry is bad? My industry, U.S. made apparel, is nearly extinct, literally. Union and non-union. The phrase 'buy American" doesn't really apply anymore except in rare cases. I guess you see this firsthand based on the parts you have to deal with. It sickens me to see U.S. production workers face the possibility of losing their jobs, especially when they are going overseas to communist countires. Again, we are financing other coutries' infrastructures. We are asleep. Good luck.
we talk here about the health costs being $1500 / vehicle. another huge cost is pensions. does anyone know what gm's pension indebtedness is ? must be huge. the suppliers of parts to the big 3 are being pushed, pinched and squeezed so hard that the quality of parts is going right down the dumper ! i believe the quote i read as to one of the major reasons that gm and probably ford & chrysler went almost all front wheel drive is that they could save another $1500 / car. vehicle quality us not there, either. for example- my 98 buick regal gs had to have the a/c clutch & seal replaced last august and it is acting up again in 10 months. also, the car has less that 50000 miles and the suspension compenents are rusting like crazy. go figure!!
Doubtful--there is a difference between uninspired garbage and edgy designs....it's just that GM has no clue as to how to tell the difference between the two. Also, remember that part of the "perception thing" is the perception of quality and reliability...if anyone would buy that monstrosity assuming it was Japanese made believe me, a large part of it would have been because the consumer knew it would BE EXTREMELY RELIABLE....something that hasn't gone hand-in-hand with GM for DECADES! GM screwed up their image....both management and unions are to blame. Since we are talking about perceptions I'll tell you what the "perception" about GM cars has been forever. Management sucks, overpaid, underdelivered and would not allow good designs to get manufactured. The cars have had a CHEAP IMAGE for decades--they look cheap, they sound cheap and their image is CHEAP. Unions get similar blame---the PERCEPTION that comes to many peoples minds (outside of the union and outside of the union heavy states) is of perpetual complainers always looking to do less work for more pay and benefits. The fact that a lot of the leaders of unions seem to end up in the pen on corruption related charges sure doesn't help. Work rules...etc, etc....this IS THE IMAGE (PERCEPTION) that is in a lot of people's minds out there so there is little sympathy. In the auto biz, your (union members and company management) fates are inextricably tied together. If you can deliver good product and ditch the bad images then the rest of the country will be happy to send $$ your way and support both management and jobs. Keep trying to sell cheaply imaged and unreliable products that can't hold up to the quality levels of THE OTHER PRODUCTS AVALIABLE OUT THERE and you will get no sympathy. These perceptions may or may not be true----whether they are or not doesn't matter because the PERCEPTION is there and has been for DECADES. Good luck. My call is that GM will continue to lose market share and in a few years Toyota will be the largest seller. A simple comparison of PERCEPTIONS--the first thing that comes to mind when you hear Toyota is most likely quality/reliability (Same for Honda). GM???? I don't think the answer is too pretty. GM probably won't file for bankruptcy but will instead muddle from one crisis to the next, shrinking in size over time and losing more market share.....that's what they have always done and there's no reason to think anything will change. This is just another one of GM's periodic crisis's (sp?)---they are used to it and have plenty of experience going through these. This is what we call an "ongoing restructuring" or "perpetual restructuring". My $.02---so don't get upset--I'm not taking potshots at anyone--just stating what I think is the average perception out there. BTW--I drive a '88 S10 Blazer with 260,000 miles on it (bought it used). I have never purchased a new car (American or otherwise). Yes, the Blazer fits the CHEAP IMAGE I describe above...so in that regard I know what I'm talking about. IF I ever buy new I will consider American (I like the 300 and the Magnum wagons) and probably wouldn't buy anything GM currently makes (other than a truck) as the designs just don't do anything for me. Also---did Jim Weise call us all "degenerates" in his post??? :laugh: Thanks, Patton
The pensions aren't a real problem at GM right now....their plan isn't under water like a lot of the other companies you hear about. If they can make it a few more years the demographics (ie mortality rates) also start cutting their pension liabilities pretty quickly. Hopefully, no matter what else happens, GM will be looked upon as a company that managed its pension plans well. You do have to wonder what kind of quality is being put into these outside supplier-supplied parts. I work in the bankruptcy area at my job and we are seeing a lot of the suppliers filing for CH 11 right now. Frankly, I think part of the bankruptcy wave is "planned" by GM, etc as it will allow them to further squeeze costs out of their suppliers after they exit CH 11....Note: These suppliers get rid of some HUGE EXPENSES via the bankrupty process and you can bet GM knows and follows their financials better than they (the suppliers) do. Patton
These closings may be the tip of the ice-berg. Analysts have pointed to over-production in the automotive market for years. I'm a union guy myself but when you see the widening gap between the amount of jobs that pay $30 an hour and $8 an hour something is seriously wrong. Add to the fact they admit themselves that consumers are unwilling to pay what they consider fair pricing for their high end products and we have a total recipe for disaster. Unlike other readers I have little sympathy for GM corporation when it comes to consumers choosing foreign manufacturers. This situation has existed since the the 70's and the big wheels at GM finally sealed its fate with their total lack of vision. I'm sure they all gave themselves a huge bonus while pointing to the fact that labour costs of $35 dollars an hour contributed to the final price of 80k plus for a vette. Ian
While alcohol, drugs, professional sports, bad TV and a whole host of meaningless crap are distracting many of us in the USA, we have all but lost our mighty manufacturing, engineering and educational base. The problems at GM have very little to do with union workers or management people. The problem is global competition gone wild. In my opinion, the global economy is going to leave the USA with big problems. We as a country have been on top of the economic ladder for many decades and that simple fact leaves us nowhere to go but down if we continue to play the globalist game. Our economy will eventually equalize with the rest of the economic world, including the third world nations, and this will surely leave us with a net loss. Enjoy your imports and get ready for a change of life style. Maybe we can all get jobs selling insurance to each other ou: , or how about flipping burgers? ou:
