"Courtesy Question:" could anybody actually be interested in buying STG-2 448 engine?

Dear V-8 Buick engine technology connoisseurs,

Back in 2012, Jim Weise built for me what was by all accounts an incredible engine:

http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?252771-New-Buildup!-448ci-STG-2-SE-Hyd-roller-an-MPG-motor

Unfortunately, I never did explain clearly what I was wanting to do with my trusty wagon. I was aware of Arthur Throckmorton 1965 Buick wagon and it's heroic exploits of taking a 10,000 pound overall vehicle load over 3000 miles:

https://gmcguy.shutterfly.com/pictures/622

I'm still not sure if my wagon will ever end up towing much of anything, but since that was the goal I had, I would like to somehow salvage the project as originally intended. I communicated with Arthur and sure enough, as he recalled, his wagon engine has a RV type cam. I don't know if Jim believes the cam that he put into the 448 engine he built for me could handle a 10,000 pound overall vehicle load or not. Perhaps he can weigh in on that question himself. All I can say is that somewhere in between Minnesota and California the poor engine really seems to have become possessed by demons. I dearly wish I had managed to take some movies to show what I was experiencing behind the wheel, but I never figured out how to steady camera in the back seat. The one thing I didn't want to do was break the camera or damage the new upholstery. So sadly, all I have are my vague descriptions of what this engine was and wasn't doing and clearly that isn't descriptive enough.

Mike Tomaszewski had the engine apart before the Christmas break and confirmed that the bearing failure must have had something to do with either the transmission or an error in putting in the propeller shaft. The engine had numerous leaks, but I suppose that the leaks were a combination of the engine producing more power than expected and the engine sitting so long before installation. In any case, the engine is completely apart right now, so all the gaskets will be replaced as a matter of course.

So to rescue my weary project there are two choices:

1.) I could instruct Mike to try to find a way to modify the engine so that it could do what I originally intended . . . . . or
2.) I could try to find someone willing to pay me enough for this engine so that value, plus what I would have to invest to modify the engine would end being about the same price as building a new engine, specifically designed for what I had in mind.

Now this is clearly damaged merchandise. I can't imagine anyone willing to pay me enough for option #2 to make sense. Still, lots of guys were very excited by this engine. It seems only polite to ask you guys to confirm what seems obvious to me.

Therefore, I finally ask: Could there be anybody actually interested in buying Jim's STG-2 448 engine off of me at a price high enough so that I could instead start with a clean slate for my wagon's engine?

Edouard

 

Re: "Courtesy Question:" could anybody actually be interested in buying STG-2 448 eng

X-2 There is no reason the combination you have won't do what you are trying to do. It sounds like mistakes were made along the way that have nothing to do with the combination you have now. I can imagine you feel let down by the whole situation but it can be fixed.:TU: Good luck Edouard.

Bob H.

 

Re: "Courtesy Question:" could anybody actually be interested in buying STG-2 448 eng

Edouard, you can have your roller cam reground to a smaller "RV" profile if you think that would help, you shouldn't have to buy another roller cam. Also there is a reason why when you buy a truck with the "trailer package" it has a numerically larger rear gear ratio, tried to tell you that already in your other thread.

With the thrust bearing toast, that seems like an installation error not really a design or build error. Hopefully that shop you use is going to correct the drive shaft length or whatever they did wrong that caused the problem and pay for the engine repairs. No wonder they were in your ear to keep JW away, but the truth came out anyway from TA. Best of luck Ed, I wish you nothing but the best for your family heirloom to be sorted out and back on the road for 50 more years of service. And, have a Happy New Year!



Derek

 

Re: "Courtesy Question:" could anybody actually be interested in buying STG-2 448 eng

Just keep in mind that the most money you could expect to get from a used engine is about half of what you invest....

 

Re: "Courtesy Question:" could anybody actually be interested in buying STG-2 448 eng

But Chris, Ed is running I think it was a 2.73 gear, I recommended the 3.42 with his combo.



Derek

 

Re: "Courtesy Question:" could anybody actually be interested in buying STG-2 448 eng

Which 1/2 ton? My 1/2 ton with the towing package came with a 3.73. With the towing package. Without the same truck came standard with a 3.08.




Derek

 

Re: "Courtesy Question:" could anybody actually be interested in buying STG-2 448 eng

Ed,

I think you should make one change..

Call Mike after they open again, and see if you can make him a deal/trade in so you can get STG 1 SE heads, vs the STG 2's you have now.

Your just changing the head castings.. all the parts change over.

Then put exhaust manifolds on the car, in place of the headers.

They will be much quieter, which seems to be more of a concern than the relatively small increase in efficiency the headers provide.

You cannot properly access the combination for suitability for your needs, because by the time you got to drive that car with the timing set properly, it was seriously wounded.

Ron over at the dyno shop tells me that scuffing just one rod bearing in a motor can cost 60-80 HP.. I can't imagine how much the power was off, grinding the thrust bearing out of it.

That, coupled with the time you spent driving the car with the timing 10 degrees retarded, has ingrained in your memory an engine that is sluggish and un-responsive.

But I have driven a stock 70 Stage 1 with AC, a car several hundred pounds heavier than your wagon, with the 470 version of your engine, and it was absolutely "light on it's feet". Mild, responsive, and only when you get into the throttle is there any idea of the performance available.

JW

 

Something just doesn't add up. (Re: STG-2 448 engine)

Dear V-8 Buick engine troubleshooters,

Just a quick reply but it really hits the nail on the head for me.

That's why I'm really terrorized by this whole situation. I understand that it - should - do what I wanted. But it most definitely - didn't - do what I wanted.

When I would take the car out, I would always to go a stop light before pulling onto a almost flat 2-lane road with a speed limit of 35 mph. I need to give this engine more throttle and it would accelerate more slowly than the old 300 cid engine did. Mike is the one who made me realize this.

So that's the crisis I feeling right now. I need an explanation for any this engine was performing so poorly at low RPM. It was tuned according to Jim's instructions. I haven't been told of anything else that could explain the situation and the engine sounds and behaves as if it does have a much more aggressive cam. As I mentioned, everybody who heard this engine in California thought this was a really aggressive hot-rod engine. They thought I was fooling about the travel trailer story.

So I toss out this question in the full bewilderment that I'm feeling: "What on earth could cause an engine with a cam that can produce low-end torque to behave as if it has an aggressive cam and not be able to produce low end torque" . . . . . ????????

I'm really serious. Nobody in the house can live with this engine as it was working in the car for those 3 months. I need a way out of this nightmare! :ball:

Edouard

 

Re: Something just doesn't add up. (Re: STG-2 448 engine)

Edouard,

I believe the answer to this was posted in Jim's prior post along with the other thread. A combination of a wasted rod bearing, grinding the thrust bearing, and 10 degrees retarded riming were going to draw the power way down.

Now to your prior question, I highly doubt anyone is going to give you what you paid for your engine. Yes, there was a lot of interest in the build (I was one such party), but as others mentioned, that's just not how it works. You'd be extremely lucky to get 70% of your investment back if the engine was in perfect running order.

This engine is a machine made of mechanical components. At some point, for some reason, some of the components failed. These components can be replaced or repaired and once that is done any and all signs point to this engine giving you the result you seek. It appears as though you are indeed very jaded given the unfortunate circumstances with this engine, and I don't blame you, it must be unimaginably frustrating. But stay the course, let those who have offered to help help, and this too shall pass.

Im afraid despite any and all feedback you receive here, your mind is made up and you just want to toss this thing and start over. I sincerely hope this is not the case and that logic will prevail (I know you to be a logical guy) and show this situation will indeed be rectified.

Good luck, hope to see you post a final success story in the near future.

 

Re: "Courtesy Question:" could anybody actually be interested in buying STG-2 448 eng

Edouard,
I would listen to Mike T and Jim W and take their collective advice, identify next steps and try not to agonize over the decision any longer. Life is way too short to let this issue cause you so much consternation.
Put it behind you; take the most practical next step, stop discussing the issue and start enjoying the car.
Ive followed your posts and have enjoyed reading about how this particular car brought you joy through people associated with the car. From what I read, you are filled with wonderful memories.
Embrace those memories, get it fixed now, move on and create new experiences with the car and the people you love.

 

Re: Something just doesn't add up. (Re: STG-2 448 engine)

I just reread and you are correct. My bad, sorry for the confusion. I misunderstood JW's post and thought this was a newly discovered issue since the tear down performed at TA.

 

Re: "Courtesy Question:" could anybody actually be interested in buying STG-2 448 eng

To answer your question- you should be able to sell it fairly easy. It's got the best of everything and was built by a reputable builder. It should sell easy. My question to you is- what are you going to replace it with?

 

Switch to trouble-shooting thread. (Was: buying STG-2 448 engine)

Dear Larry, Joe, and V-8 Buick engine troubleshooters,

This thread has quickly become another engine troubleshooting thread. Perhaps it is better to therefore abandon it and start on a thread with a reasonable subject. I just got a thought about one possible cause and have tossed it out for you'all to ponder. Perhaps you should reply on that new thread:

http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.p...if-excessively-laboring&p=2409994#post2409994

I don't know why the timing was off, but I fear that Jim probably accidentally nudged the distributor in that desperate weekend when he had to fabricate the A/C compressor bracket. That was Vintage Air's fault. Jim ordered the parts over a month before the engine had to be shipped and it took Vintage Air over 3 weeks to get the compressor to him. Instead of having plenty of time to make all this work, it was a weekend marathon. Worse still, I had asked Jim to try to fit chrome pulleys on everything and no chrome power steering pulley would work. Poor Jim tried at least 3-4 combinations and I have the pictures to prove it.

Jim was anxious to have the engine arrive in time for the Orinda Classic Car show and honestly so was I. However, this was rushing things too much and I had emailed Jim telling him to give up. So I don't think it is Jim's fault a all, but I believe that's the most likely scenario for why the timing was off.

Once the timing was corrected, the engine performed much better at higher RPM, but at low RPM the situation was the same. Even with correct timing, 0-35 mph has a horribly painful ordeal. So the problem most definitely isn't timing.

My answer is - I don't have any clue. Alas, if I had gone with a Chevy crate drive-train back in 2012, I would have been driving and enjoying the car for already 3 years . . . . .

Oh well,

Edouard

 

Re: Switch to trouble-shooting thread. (Was: buying STG-2 448 engine)

You have a couple things to consider then. First off there is a strong possibility your engine failure was caused by the transmission. If you are not sure what the thrust bearing is, take some time to Google it and familiarise yourself with it. It's very unique and plays a very important role within the motor you or guys need to determine what caused it to fail after all, if you punt on the Buick motor and buy a Chevy if the problem is in the transmission the thrust bearing will fail just as quick in the second attempt regardless of what motor you decide to put in. My point is- that transmission should be at the builder's shop and at the very least gone through. If there is a problem found you might get them to compensate you some $$$ for wrecking the motor. If its discovered that the installation was goofed up, well then your friends at orinda motors owe you the compensation.

Secondly- consider the costs of switching engine brands. All your brackets, wiring, and exhaust will need changed. That will likely add up quick.

Thirdly- your0-35 lame duck issue is a tuning problem. I'm not a firm believer in the tune as it drives type systems. For the amount of money you have invested (respectively) the extra thousand dollars to have your wagon tuned on a chassis dyno by a competent tuner would have netted you a near perfect tune in a days time. Your wagon would behave like a new car.

Lastly, and I apologize if this comes across as being a Monday morning quarterback, but you have too many cooks in the kitchen. You need to figure out who made the mistakes, fire them and hold them responsible

 

Re: "Courtesy Question:" could anybody actually be interested in buying STG-2 448 eng

somebody's gonna have to educate me on how a driveshaft can wipe out a rod bearing, and thrust bearing, and back down the timing, and also make it sound and idle ****ty ........... :idea2:

i'm also not sure i've EVER seen a low rpm, pump gas, dual plane intake street engine, make a straight curve 98% Vol-eff on a dyno...

I still say it's a torq convertor installation issue somehow that started it, combined with the installing shops inadequacies ,,,