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camshaft rebuild problems

Discussion in 'Classic Buicks' started by 1961Bubbles, Aug 22, 2013.

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1961Bubbles Member

I'm in Los Angeles and my 61 buick with a 364 is at my friends house in Van Nuys. I have changed my camshaft, timing gears, chain, lifters, rods, and couldn't get my car started. I then changed my carb and it started but the rpms are low to low and wont advance with distributor. I have check the timing, compression, firing stroke, firing order and cant get my car running good. The valves don't look like they are moving very much when i crank it over by hand. I have a 1961 buick with a 364 nailhead. I need help or someone that can look at it with me. I have been trying to get it going for over a week. I put in a stock 401 cam E-564-S, Vl-3 lifters, 364 push rods from Egges. Cylinder 1 is on the firing stroke, the rotor is facing 1, timing is at 12. i got a 1406 eldebrock carb. flame thrower coil, Petronix points. new wires,cap.Can someone help me. i will pay if someone can come look at it and help me figure it out. Steff 323-605-3795

1961Bubbles, Aug 22, 2013

#1
Gary Bohannon Well-Known Member

A fellow asked if I had any idea why his 430 Electra wouldn't run. He told me about all the parts he had checked or replaced.
I told him to drop the exhaust pipes and crank her over.
Next day he said with a smile "she sounded like a dragster"
Factory style exhausts are double layered and can collaps inside. Sometimes both sides collaps and the engine goes from poor performance to no performance.

Gary Bohannon, Aug 22, 2013

#2
CameoInvicta Well-Known Member

So you did get it to fire, but it idles too low? Have you tried increasing the idle on the carb? Did you make sure the dots on the timing gears were lined up?

CameoInvicta, Aug 22, 2013

#3
1961Bubbles Member

it didnt run with the original carb once i put it on so i bought a new one just to see. i got it to fired with the new one but it barely runs. I tried adjusting the carb as well. the dots on the timing gears are perfectly lined up.

---------- Post added at 07:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:57 PM ----------

it ran with 4 lobes dead. i didnt start change the other bs until i was desperate for answers

1961Bubbles, Aug 23, 2013

#4
1961Bubbles Member

I turned the oil pump shaft with a drill and screw driver. and there is pressure of 45 to 50 on the oil sensor but I don't see any oil coming up through the engine . I'm not sure what the oil path is on the nailhead. Do i need have the an old distributor shaft to move the oil through the engine? Also the push rods are loose against the the rockers. There seems like there is to much play. I feel like the no adjustable stock rockers should be tighter against the rods. Some of there are noticeably loose. I pulled a lifter and there was no oil in it.

1961Bubbles, Sep 3, 2013

#5
1961Bubbles Member

need help

 I'm in Los Angeles and my 61 Buick with a 364 Nailhead is at my friends house in Van Nuys. The car was running fine until it was backfiring through the carb. It had 4 bad lobes on the camshaft and was still running. I have changed my camshaft, cam bearings, timing gears, chain, lifters, rods, and couldn't get my car started. I did not degree the cam when I put it in. I was told by Elgin and the guy I bought it from that I should not have to.

I got the right firing. I put the timing chain and gears in tdc and according to the manual. I have checked the timing, it has good compression, firing stroke, correct firing order and cant get my car running good. I then changed my carter carb with an Eldebrock 1406 and it started but the rpms are too low, It will idle with the carb held wide open and the valves are hardly moving. The stock nonadjustable rockers are in it. Some of the new rods from Egges seem too loose against the rocker arms. The valves don't look like they are moving very much.
I have been trying to get it going for over a few weeks. I made sure all the cam bearing holes lined up. I put in a stock 401 cam E-564-S from northern auto parts, Vl-3 lifters, 364 push rods from Egges. Cylinder 1 on the passenger side is on the firing stroke, the rotor is facing 1, and timing is at 12. I got a 1406 Eldebrock carb. Flame thrower coil, Petronix points which were in the motor before and worked. New plug wires, distributor cap and ac 45s plugs. I soaked the lifters in oil first but did not pump them. I thinking maybe the lifters are not pumping up but I don't know why they wouldn't by now when the car has started. They lifters are VL-3 's according to the box.
I tried again to get it going with no luck. It will turn over but it will barely idle. I looked at it with the valve cover off and they are barely moving. I have read so much at this point but I don't where to go from here. I thought I did everything right, timing, firing order, etc. Everybody has a different idea but nothing is working so far. My next step is to tear it apart again or find a shop. I haven't been able to find a shop that wants to work on a nailhead or is familiar with them.

I took the valley pan off, the cam is still good. I turned the oil pump shaft with a drill and screw driver. And there is pressure of 45 to 50 on the oil sensor but I don't see any oil coming up through the engine. I'm not sure what the oil path is on the nailhead. Do I need have an old distributor shaft to move the oil through the engine? Also the push rods are loose against the rockers. There seems like there is too much play. I feel like the none adjustable stock rockers should be tighter against the rods, Im wondering if the rockers are worn but again the car ran before with a bad cam. Some of the push rods are very noticeably loose. I pulled a new lifter out and there was no oil in it.
This is a daily driver and you know what it's like not having a car in LA. I'm becoming very desperate and grasping at straws I need help or someone that can come look at it with me in Van Nuys to figure it out or a nailhead knowledgeable mechanic that I can bring it to in southern California close to Los Angeles area.
Steff Garletts 323-605-3795


1961Bubbles, Sep 4, 2013

#6
wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

I replied in your other thread, but you haven't answered yet. Here is what I posted over there:

Oil flows from the pump and through the filter. It then goes into the main oil gallery to feed the main bearings and cam bearings. That main gallery goes to the front of the engine where oil goes around the front cam bearing to feed 1) the two lifter galleries, and 2) passages to the heads to feed the rocker arms.

When you say the push rods are 'loose', do you mean they don't touch the rockers and can be rattled around?
There should be no free play or gaps when it's assembled. you will be able to compress the lifter a little and 'make' freeplay/gaps.
If there are gaps, you may have the wrong lifters or push rods. If the cam is a regrind and not brand new, there might be some extra clearance, but it won't be a huge amount.

When you changed the carb, did you install the metal plate and gasket? If you don't use the metal plate, the groove in the intake manifold will be exposed and cause a huge vacuum leak.

What were the results of the compression test? Should be somewhere around 150 psi. If it's very different, that may be a sign the timing chain isn't installed correctly.

wkillgs, Sep 4, 2013

#7
John Codman Platinum Level Contributor

Rockers should not be loose. If you can move the rockers with just light finger pressure, something is causing too much clearance, and the engine will run like garbage or not at all. You gotta solve that problem first. As was said earlier, you could have the wrong lifters, the pushrods are too short, or something isn't installed correctly.
Update: This is just a thought - Is there any possibility that you have installed a set of 264-322 pushrods instead of 364 units? That would cause the problem with excessive clearance that you describe.

Last edited: Sep 7, 2013

John Codman, Sep 7, 2013

#8
1961Bubbles Member

I questioning the push rods, I have to call egge. I don't have anything that can measure them that close and they have 3 kits listed from 57-6 and they didn't come in a box I order the lifters from centerville but I'm not sure if the parts were dropped shipped from his supplier they say vl-3 on the box but I can't find that part number on the web. I read somewhere that vl-5 and vl-3 are interchangeable. So I question them as well. It is very frustrating. Compression was about 140 on all cylinders.

1961Bubbles, Sep 7, 2013

#9
wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

322 pushrods are 8.25" long, end-end
364 are 8.446"
401 are 8.723"

A ruler would be sufficient to measure these.

wkillgs, Sep 7, 2013

#10
John Codman Platinum Level Contributor

Progress report?

John Codman, Sep 9, 2013

#11
1961Bubbles Member

I'm not getting responses in my mail. Still not running, I'm going to try and prime the oil pump to make sure i'm getting proper oil flow. Then i'm going to take the timing chain cover off and check the timing gears again to make sure they are right. i don't know what else to check that i haven't already 3 times .

---------- Post added at 06:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:13 PM ----------

the rods should be the the right length, Egges said Vl -3 lifters should be good lifters. I still don't know why the rods seem so loose in the rockers seats, doesn't make sense to me. i can't find and vacuum leak. Still frustrated, can't find a mechanic in los angeles that wants to deal with a nailhead still. So I guess I'm ripping it apart on Friday
again and starting over.

1961Bubbles, Sep 11, 2013

#12
TexasJohn55 Well-Known Member

You never did say if you had oil pressure on the guage while you were cranking it. If you did, you are not filling the lifters, assuming all the parts are compatible. Pull a lifter out of the bore and spin the engine or with the drill motor and see if oil runs out of the lifter galley. That should narrow down the possibilities.

TexasJohn55, Sep 11, 2013

#13
John Codman Platinum Level Contributor

It would be very easy for a stock picker to misread 264 for 364. I still think you should yank one pushrod and measure it. It doesn't matter what Egge says. It matters what you actually have. It's NBD to pull one pushrod (especially if it's too short).

John Codman, Sep 13, 2013

#14
CameoInvicta Well-Known Member

I agree with everyone else. There should be no play between the push rods and rockers. In fact, there should be a little pre-load on the lifter. Before you go checking everything else, do as John suggested and pull a push rod or two and check the length.

CameoInvicta, Sep 13, 2013

#15
TexasJohn55 Well-Known Member

This information is not to disqualify any suggestions you have already received pertaining to checking the galley for oil pressure and measuring pushtube length or other parts mismatches.

If the lifters have pumped up, you will not be able to compress the inner spring of the lifter by hand when pressing down on a loose rocker at the pt end. Alternately, if they did not fill, you should be able to feel the spring compress and spring back when pushing down on the pushtube end. There is not a lot of internal travel but you can feel it bottom and spring back.

Having said that, I'm done. You have been given plenty of good advice but have given little feedback of real value to those trying to help. Have you checked anything or just scattered it again without knowing what to look for?

TexasJohn55, Sep 13, 2013

#16
John Codman Platinum Level Contributor

I wouldn't be too quick to yank the timing cover just yet. Even if you have the camshaft in totally wrong, the rockers will still move the same amount as they would with the cam in correctly. I am thinking that you have one single problem that is the root cause of the not running issue. You said that the rockers aren't moving much. The cam wouldn't cause that. I'm still thinking pushrods, which are an easy fix. Have you measured one yet?

John Codman, Sep 15, 2013

#17
wkillgs Gold Level Contributor

Steff did report a cranking compression of 140, which is in the ballpark. If the cam timing was way off, the compression psi would be off, and most likely valves would be hitting the pistons since valve/piston clearance is VERY tight on these engines.

I had asked if the correct carb base gasket and heat shield were installed... if the heat shield is missing, you'll have a huge vacuum leak.
Also mentioned was whether the Petronixl had a good 12v supply, or was connected with the original resistance wire with only about 9v.
I tried searching Egge's site for vl3 lifters, but couldn't find them. They list a vl47 for the Nailheads.

wkillgs, Sep 15, 2013

#18
CameoInvicta Well-Known Member

wkillgs said: ↑

Steff did report a cranking compression of 140, which is in the ballpark. If the cam timing was way off, the compression psi would be off, and most likely valves would be hitting the pistons since valve/piston clearance is VERY tight on these engines.

I had asked if the correct carb base gasket and heat shield were installed... if the heat shield is missing, you'll have a huge vacuum leak.
Also mentioned was whether the Petronixl had a good 12v supply, or was connected with the original resistance wire with only about 9v.
I tried searching Egge's site for vl3 lifters, but couldn't find them. They list a vl47 for the Nailheads.
Click to expand...

I think only the Pertronix Ignitor III requires battery voltage. The Ignitor and Ignitor II should work fine with the factory resistance wire.

CameoInvicta, Sep 15, 2013

#19
1961Bubbles Member

I took it apart and found that the front bearing spun 180 degrees and was blocking the oil hole. For some reason i'm not getting notifications of reply to this thread.

---------- Post added at 11:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 PM ----------

I'm also getting the rocker arms redone. I had to let the car sit for a while because i have been working non-stop. I'm not sure why the front bearing spun but the holes where lined up properly when i installed the cam. The Cam didn't seem like it was binding when i installed it.

1961Bubbles, Oct 4, 2013

#20

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