The shaft is supposed to have a retaining clip to keep it located... Doesn't work well if it's missing...
Yes, typically what happens is when revving for long periods of time too much oil will accumulate in the upper parts of the motor and will starve the bottom end. Its just the 455s that have that problem though, the larger mains are hard to keep oiled And see, this is where it gets fishy and honestly part of the reason i wanted to start this thread. All conventional wisdom says shorter stroke motors rev better and longer stroke motors make more torque, but for some reason there doesnt seem to be a big difference between the Olds and Buick there o No:
IMO the olds block isnt THAT much stronger than the buick. Buick castings are very very thin though.... Most reputable builders will tell you that past the 650hp mark the block integrity becomes dicy. You dont need to worry about a sonic test when boring an olds. The older olds cranks were forged, and certain rods too I beleive. Buicks' wasnt unless you watch an episode of HP TV Both engines have oiling issues (olds too much, buick not enough). Both have excellent flowing heads, and poor exhaust flow. Olds has 6* heads, and I forget what Buiick is... 18*? The only thing that comes close to olds' 6* is the cadillac 11". Whoever said you can take out an olds 350 and put in a 455, you make me laugh.... Youd be surprised how many things youd run into. You have to use ALL the same pullies, the same intake, and the same waterpump for that to be true. Both engines are notorious for overheating. aftermarket parts availability and pricing is about the same. In the end, better is an indefinite, personal opinion. You can go on and on with this thread with no definitive info. From the factory, in stock trim, the buick was rated with higher power output. If you start comparing aftermarket builds, sky's the limit.
I'm sorry, I don't understand the original intent of this topic to begin with. Many of the engines moving cars around for the last 100 years or so were designed to do different things, by different companies, by different divisions of companies, for different reasons. Can we get some more focus on what started as a vague question about two 455 engines from two divisions of GM to specific questions? Devon
Big block Olds are extremely easy to swap with 350 Olds, maybe not an exact swap but very close, closer than any other small block/big block swap ive seen. The fuel lines/pump swap over, all the brackets and pullies swap over, the 350 motor mounts work perfectly with the 455 it just sits very very slightly higher than if it had real 455 mounts (maybe half an inch?). The intake does not swap, the water pump might actually, im not sure. But a the longblocks themselves will swap seamlessly along with all the accessories
Both motors had performance varients for A-bodies though. Its just a comparison of the Olds 455 vs the Buick 455, what the differences are between building them, what to look out for on both. Basically all the stuff that makes people say "if it was built buy a guy who builds 454s dont even try to start it" ya know? It wasnt meant to be very vague it just kinda ended up getting a bit sidetracked with talks of motors other than the two in question. PS: When i posted this i actually almost put a little note at the bottom saying "and no cop-out answers like 'theyre both completely different, thats the difference" hahaha, just looking for factual differences between them. Such as how the different bore and stroke affects both (which has been touched on), which one had better flowing heads, which heads were the best for each motor, which were the worst, which years were more desireable between the two motors...just lots of little bits of info like that
I'm with you, Evan, thanks for that input. After my comments, please accept my apology if I was curt. Devon
The Olds 350 was the best small block GM built before the LS engines. A diesel 350 block will handle more power than any old production small block bar none.... The Olds 455 block is no stronger than a Buick. The lifter bores/cylinder walls are thicker though. The Olds motor is a simpler more interchangable design. Olds heads and intake manifolds are boat anchors for performance. The Buick timing cover/oil pump was a crack head idea. Buick sacrificed too much strenght to make the motor light weight. IMHO the Buick 455 is a light weight MOPAR 440. Olds 455 is a Detroit Diesel running on gasoline.
The best Olds motor was the 425. Forged crank and similar bore/stroke to the 430 Buick. Revved better tha Olds 455 and stronger too..... A real contrast was the 350 Olds vs. 350 Buick. Olds had a super short stroke 3.385 while the 350 Buick has longer stroke than bore. In this case there was notceable advantage in torque going to the Buick esp at low rpm. I find it fascinating that GM had so many engine going on back then....
From my experience playing in both worlds: The SBO parts are easier to come by, although SBB parts are starting to catch up. People could scavance parts off Olds motors up until 1990 to retrofit into older engines. This includes the aluminum intakes used in the mid 80's. Buick folks can scavange parts off the 3.8's well into the 90's, but not many of the parts are a direct swap. For the big block crowd parts availability is about even. Both engines are supported well by aftermarket companies such as Rocket Racing and TA Performance. The swap from a SBO to a BBO is easy. Just need to change the downtubes and the motor mounts along with a beefier trans and a few longer wires. The swap from a SBB to a BBB is not even close to direct. The downfalls for the Olds are the shared center exhaust runners as well as the game of musical accessories that you have to play when you remove or add A/C. It's the only engine I know of where having A/C means that your alternator and battery needs to switch to the other side of the car. The downfalls of the Buick are the super expensive parts and the ever present danger of core shift. Seems like it's the engine most commonly mentioned when people talk about poor quality control at the foundry.
hmmmm...I seem to remember WJ dominating Pro Stock with first a diesel block SBO,:3gears: then a NASCAR SBO,:3gears: :3gears: Then a BBC redesigned correctly by Olds called a DRCE:3gears: :3gears: :3gears: .....Who'll stop the reign?....Nobody, the DRCE is still winning...And a Batten Head Diesel SBO will still spank any factory Buick....:spank: http://www.streetfire.net/video/twin-turbo-small-block-oldsmobile-powered-dragster_55710.htm :spank: :spank: :bla: :moonu: :Brow:
And what does all your Buick 350 bashing have to do with 455 vs 455. You obvously are in love with your olds 350, to the point of blindness. I still want to know, though, if the diesel block is so great in racing, why did it suck wind in a station wagon? Ohhhhhh, thats right, olds had to redesign it.... ps, you remind me of the mustang 302 guys that are convinced that a 302 is the best, fastest, stongest motor around, will eat any big block...blah blah blah Lets get back to the topic, eh?
Not to mention, to get the diesel block to greatness you need to go through ALOT of trouble. Its not a plug and play deal. Clearance the crank by grinding the block. Play with BBC journal sizes, play with custom stroke, rods, and pistons, on and on and on..... Its not a great racing engine with the SBO internals that it started with. Put that effort into an SBB or BBB, and you get to the same place dont you? Look at Bobb Makley, or Rod's car.
First off, sorry, especially to DaWildcat. I feel like i was kind of rude in my last comment. I had some pent up aggression going on at the time and i'll take some time to politely show what i meant the thread too be Ins and Outs of an Olds 455 Build Olds motors have a lot of torque and are best built for that rather than horsepower. All stock iron heads flow poorly, period. A mildly ported C-head will flow around 180cfm. The best money you can spend on an Olds 455 build is in the heads as its the weakest point of this motor. The bottom end of an Olds 455 is near bullet proof. stock crank and rods will hold up to about any abuse you can throw at it and will survive well into the 10s with or without nitrous, no girdles or straps necessary. Olds 455s have a notorious oiling problem where at sustained high RPMs the oil will starve the bottom end causing failure, most typically spinning bearings. For some reason Oldsmobile felt it was more efficient to only drill cranks for a manual transmission if they were going into a manual car, making it difficult to swap an auto car to a manual transmission, the crank would need removed and drilled for a pilot bushing. Olds 455s will swap nearly seamlessly with an Olds 350, and honestly i woudnt be surprised if it is the easiest big block swap out there. An long block Olds 455 can be swapped perfectly minus intake and carb, even then the carb would work but you would be robbing yourself of power. All brackets, fuel lines, motor mounts, and water pumps will swap, its all interchangeable. Even small block Olds heads will swap onto and work with a 455 however the intake would need to be custom fitted to the heads.Olds 455s enjoy lots of carb and lots of cam when compared to more common builds such as the Chevy 454. Higher lift cams work very well in Olds 455s because their large stroke will provide gobs of torque no matter what you do to it, a modern, higher lift cam will add top-end power and mileage over an ancient stock grind cam. While on the subject Olds tend to get good mileage for a big block which ive been told is due to the unique angle of the heads. Olds big blocks are hard to discern from Olds small blocks, they look very similar with the big block being 1 inch wider on each side and slightly higher deck height, aside from that the only ways to tell are small blocks are gold and big blocks are blue (except in toronados which were red), also big block heads are IDed with a letter (A, B, C, Ga, etc) and small block heads are IDed with a number (5, 6, 7a, etc). Rocket Racing, Mondello, and Dick Miller Racing (DMR) are the best places to look for aftermarket parts and performance upgrades on an Olds 455 Now, if someone can do a write-up like this for a Buick, itd be the perfect comparison! I guess my original post was kind of vague, but this should clear it all up. Im interested to see what a write-up like this on a Buick 455 would be like *And yes, the topic is Olds vs Buick 455. Not "which is better" but just a comparison. Lets say for sake of argument you have a 70' 442 and a 70' GS455 and each have their respective 455 motors which you want to rebuild for mild performance. What would the differences be? Where would the money be best spent? What would go into a swap if one of the cars was a small block and was being cloned into the 442 or GS? What are the strengths of each? What are the weaknesses? Etc. There are many other motors out there, and they may be easier or harder to build, may respond worse or better to upgrades, but this thread is for these two specific 455 motors and again i appologize for my rudeness. And DaWildcat, i love your cat by the way, the 67' cat is one of my favorite cars
Remove Mondello from your parts source list. They're not doing good since they switched hands a few years back.
