There is another gentleman with a Stage 1 who frequents this board.....we discovered our body numbers are only 4 digits apart, yet our VIN's are seperated by over a 1000 ....so how exactly did GM track body numbers and VIN's?? Were there same body numbers for different car lines (obviously there can only ever be 1 of a VIN)...how can there be such a spread on two a-bodies produced so close together?? Maybe thread-ender Duane can answer this one...:Brow: later and thanks Tim
Tim, I am not sure how GM assigned Vin and Body Numbers, but the two different numbers often flip-flop around each other. If you get enough numbers you start to see trends, and can tell (within a couple of weeks) when the car was built. This is how we used to catch people trying to fake GSX's. They would try to "move" the date of production into the GSX time period, but the Vin number catches them. I have pretty good records for the 1970 flint cars. Another thing that messes with the numbers is that GM built the cars in "Color batches", and they still do. So they may have assigned vin #'s to a bunch of 70 Saturn Yellow GSX's, but waited till they had enough cars to do a batch. The white GSX's were thrown in with other white cars so they tend to match closer. I have Buildsheets from 2 White GSX's , built on the same day, that have consecutive body numbers but the Vin numbers are 183 apart. Duane
I'm sure Duane will pipe in later, but I'll give a teaser for now... The Fisher body # was sequential to the 'A' bodies only, because they were all assembled in the same plant. The Buick Flint plant was Final assembly for all models. The unique 6 digit VIN sequence number was assigned to the next car, whatever model it was. Added in edit - Damn Duane - You're quick with the keys! I really have to start learning how to type and stop 'hunting-and-pecking'
Marco, Tell Andy to get ready, I have decided I am going to Flint. See you at the Sloan Museum. Duane PS. I might be old, but i'm not dead yet.
I'd also like to add - At Buick performance weekend this past year I noticed something very interesting from 2 board members' cars - JerryF's GS (Bamboo Creme conv) and Paul455's GS (originally a Harvest Gold conv) had body numbers off by 2. The VINs were a couple hundred off. The closest car to mine in the registry, by body number - 7 digits ahead of me (glacier white conv). The VIN is 10,000 greater :eek2: The closest car to mine in the registry, by VIN number - 100 digits ahead of me and the body number is 4600 behind mine o No:
What would we do without you??? o No: I haven't bothered Andy in a while. I'll ask him if any plans are in place to offer access to their library for 'research' time. That would be very cool. - PS - bring your spy camera :Brow:
Duane, I will help you carry the xerox machine in and I will bring a spy camera also along with tons of caffine....:TU:
Hey guys, the prototype will be parked out in front of the Sloan Museum...we can group there and make our assult plans on the museum.......:laugh: Keep me in the loop on the copy machine...wife and kids have plenty of practice on one now. Oh, and Duane...you are NOT old (spoken from a person who is 9 months your senior). :bglasses:
Brad, I didn't want to tell everyone how old you really are but now that you mentioned it................... Of course Moses has us beat. I will be bringing the X-Camino to "tease" the people from Buick. Duane
Duane, you lost me with the GSX thing. I have never owned a GSX, but your explaination of catching fakes I couldn't follow. I'm not worried about it, I trust your correct. :TU: I had noticed that Tim's Fischer body # was 4 diff from mine, then we compared vin's, and mine was about a 1,000 later.:shock: I think Tim's car is blue, mine is bittersweet (probably not that common of a color), so I assume mine had to wait for a batch of bittersweet cars. I guess the vin is NOT assigned until the vehicle is complete. So this is how I see it (and please correct me where I'm wrong)! Our GS's (and all other cars) began at Fischer body plants. Where they assembled chassis, glass, wheels, sheet metal, carpet & interior, engine & drive train . Then the car is delivered to Flint final assembly, where painting comes first, then chrome, emblems, etc. :beer :beer Am I close??? So one more thing, Fischer body plate 9A (1st week of Sept), but then that doesn't mean my car was actually completed that week, only that the Fischer plant was completed then? How then (if at all) can you tell when the car was completed?
Great I always believed the vin came first(just like Brad sez), until I started reading this post. Now I'm really confused.ou: ou: I'll go back & read somemore, maybe it will sink in.o No:
Hi Dan - I guess when you ordered the car, it was assigned a VIN right away. Fisher would then build it when they had a chance. Maybe the line was open when the order came in, or maybe they were backlogged and had to wait to start assembling the car. o No: Duane's GSX comments pertained to 1970 GSXs being built Feb-May 1970. Body numbers would reflect this time period, in addition to the VIN serial #. I *guess* some people were taking the cowl tags off (wrecked) QQ GSXs and putting the tags on their (earlier than Feb 1970) VIN? :spank: Also, given that Saturn Yellow was unique to the GSX only, Duane observed that Fisher waited for a number of QQ GSX orders to paint them. The 10-10 GSX orders were painted with the other Arctic white 'A' bodies. Does this make sense? o No:
Dan, actually my car was originally platinum mist, which is another unusual color (as is yours)...perhaps that explains the spread right there. Marco, I don't understand your explantion....the VIN and cowl tag are interconnected, if you can find the paperwork for the car it will list colors, options, seats etc so you can't really swap out the cowl tag but not the vin...things wouldn't match up..... later Tim
Hi Tim - The key here is paperwork, which only (relatively) recently has surfaced. All 1970 GSXs were paint QQ or 10 10, and all had trim code 188 (black buckets) which about 1/3 (1766 out of 5462) of all 4637 Flint built models in 1970 were equipped with. Of the 5462 cars, 535 were originally paint code 10 (including non-GSX) and 491 were paint code QQ (GSX only) Prior to Wayne, it was a 'given' that if a 1970 GS had a 'QQ' cowl tag, it was a GSX. Maybe some people were swapping 'QQ' cowl tags on GSs with too early of a VIN for it to be a true GSX. o No: 10-10 GSX's would have been harder to prove without paperwork. I was just speculating...sorry for the confusion.
Well that makes sense, no worries, I always find this stuff fascinating for some reason. I know there are places that will make you a new cowl tag so you can have it match the new color of your car, but i don'tunderstand why you would do that since if you are that worried about it being correct, wouldn't you have left the original colors intact??LOL Anyway, I have read the above statements but the whole process is still somewhat confusing to me. Must be the shock of the TWO FEET of snow we got today(another two forecast), I was getting ready to take the Stage 1 out for its first spin this year!! Worst snowfall for this time of year in 118years, and two days ago it was high 70's and the street sweepers were out.... One other thing, in the day 1000 cars was not much so they could have been produced the same day...weren't sales of some Buick models as high as 250,000 per year?? later Tim
Dan, My comment about the Vin numbers was that they do not follow the body numbers exactly. Sometimes you see 2 cars that were built on the same week and one has a higher vin#, but lower body # then the other car. If you have a large enough sampling of vin and body numbers, from a particular production plant, you will see how the numbers increase as the production year continues. Then if you are given a Vin# , for some other car, you can figure out approximately when it was built, usually within a week or two. My comment about faking GSX's did not refer to you or anyone else in particular. Previous to Wayne Roberts getting the Microfilm records for the late 1970 cars the only way to tell a 70 GSX was with a build sheet. Many people used the trim tags to identify yellow GSX's because of the QQ paint code. The problem was that Trim tags were being reproduced and some people were changing their colors to QQ and changing the dates to the Feb-May 1970 time period. (When the 70 GSX's were produced.) This allowed them to represent their car as a GSX, without documentation. Some people did this and sold these "faked" cars for good money. The only way to catch them was to look at the Vin#/Body# of the car. People are still buying repro Trim Tags to change the color/trim codes for their cars. There is still no microfilm out there for 71 cars, so if someone's car was originally red with a green vinyl top, it could easily be changed to red with a white top and have it's "value" increased accordingly. The Fisher ID tag tells when the Body was built, then the car was delivered to the Buick assembly Plants for final assembly. If you are lucky enough to have a "Body Shop Inspection" sheet in your car it lists when the body was built and has a Punch-out, actually the Initials of the inspector that Ok'd the body for buick. I hope this helps clarify at least some things. Duane
Thanks guys, I got it And just like you said, my car was 1000 after Tim's, and my body almost was a lower number. So here I thought my car was shipped out the 1st week of September (A9), but that just tells us it was heading for final assembly. What is the estimated time the average car would be completed in final assembly (inside 1 week, 2-3 tops)?o No:
